Confidence, Not Skill | Dr. Patrice Johnson on Schools and STEM

The stats are will will suggest that it is not that girls are not good at STEM. It’s the confidence around can I do STEM, which is more a cultural issue where we have consistently said that a scientist looks like the guy from Back to the Future and not like me, right? Or other women.

It looks like, you know, the guy with the white lab coat. Let’s Let’s Let’s Let’s just kick things off. Why don’t you start by introducing yourself and and then maybe just like sharing a little bit about Project Scientist.

So, I am Patrice. My team calls me Dr. J because I am a girl who likes basketball and I just feel like that’s good company. And I lead the dream team.

Project Scientist is a not just an organization, but we’re a part of a larger movement of folks who want to see girls confident and leading boldly, whether it’s in STEM or any other field. And so our cornerstone is STEM. We want girls to be creative and innovative.

And we like to say disruptors in the STEM space, right? But even more than that, that they feel like they can lead. And so I I and I think that part of that mission and the reason why I’m in the role that I’m in is because it matches who I am.

That I wanted to lead and was bold enough to do it at 22 years old, 21 years old, graduating from Michigan State, going back to my hometown and boldly putting my name on the ballot to say, "I’m going to run for office." And that’s that. And I did. And I served for 4 years.

And we made great things happen in my hometown. And I think that every girl should have that undeniable confidence to be in the space to lead. And it’s even more important right now when I think our country has essentially told girls you could actually be overqualified for the role, but we decided to go this route.

And and not if I’m if I’m being very candid, not elect women presidents, right? Versus other countries in the world, the US is number 44. Out of all the countries in the world, we are 44 in regards to having women serve in leadership capacity.

And we we have the facts and the details around I’m rambling so bad right now, Alex. I’m just talking to you. Rambling.

No, this is important. You know who’s number one and number two? Rwanda and Cuba.

I would not have guessed that. I would not have guessed that at all. I know Iceland has a female prime minister.

Yes. Yes. Nami- Namibia just also elected a a female head of state.

And what we know about women who lead is that they lead from a space that considers holistic policy. And I think that that’s exactly what we need in this climate. We cannot just consider whether or not people have access to one thing.

We have to consider the whole person. And I wrote this article called the equity mirror back in November about what it would look like for a woman to lead in in the US. And I think it was going to be a a way for us to see what it was going to challenge everybody’s view of equity.

Cuz I think in our psyche, particularly as Americans, we assume that leadership looks like white rich male. And what was that going to do for us when the ultimate form of power Now, is incredible is feminine. You know, and I’ve been challenging this idea of what leadership looks like that it does not necessarily look like or I should say this, nurture is a form of leadership, but we don’t we don’t accept that form of leadership because it comes in a different form.

It comes in more more than likely a feminine form, but as a as a man, you can be a nurturer. And what does that mean for you to nurture your team? And to develop your team in a space of safety.

And so, I say all of that to come back to project scientist, which is my heart around our girls can be creative in the STEM space. But when they walk out the door, I also want them to feel like I can be a very a bold leader. Well, it’s interesting because the the there’s a there’s a conversation happening right now about well, AI can do all this stuff that we traditionally assumed people in STEM were going to do, things like writing code or doing deep research.

First of all, I think the jury’s still out as to whether that’s even the case. The AI can help to write code. Can it do it comp- completely by itself?

No. Will it eventually? We’ll see. But it has actually forced, I think, folks in the STEM community to step back and ask this question of like, what is the role of STEM education if not just imbuing students with like, you know, marketable skills.

And I think there’s like just this a lot of the talk in education is kind of it treats students as like resources. It’s like, we need to like, you know, this like the workforce readiness. Mhm.

It can be it can be seen through the lens of like, oh, empowering kids so that they can get great jobs, but it can also be seen through the lens of like, companies need human capital. I mean, you have to develop that capital for those companies. What you’re describing is STEM, but but really in with a broader lens or broader aperture.

That’s about some of the other components of being prepared. And so, you’re you’re identifying leadership as kind of that core. And I can think about a lot of the pieces that go into that.

I mean, when you think about what you see as missing in school today, what are some of the the the the types of mentalities or or skills that Project Scientist focuses on? Well, first I want to you you just said something so powerful to me is that this shift, even in the way organizations are changing from a DEI focus and trying to fit into this this new lens, workforce development, to your point, is absolutely aligned with companies saying, "Well, we need folks today to fill this pipeline, right?" Which is absolutely a capital perspective, not whether or not people are whole and feel full in their lives, which I mean, if we want to break this all the way down, let’s go back to the key components of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That has nothing to do with fulfilling your workforce development, right?

And I guess I’m going to like are we really talking about people having the aspect of joy and the fullness of of living and actually pursuing purpose? And I think so, when you ask, "What is it that the educational institutions have to consider?" If we were really tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding it, we would not separate community from school and school from community. And what that looks like to me is considering the whole human being in their essence of being human.

And I think Project Scientist, our lens is, you know, one of the things that our folks always say to us is, "This is the joy bubble." When you walk into a session, when you’re engaging with students, when you come to a staff meeting, there is this space of joy. And joy does not have to be absent of other components or of of resilience or struggle, but joy is a constant, you know. It acknowledges that we are pursuing radical justice in a time where people feel depleted and hopeless, but it is the constant factor.

And I think that that joy allows our girls to learn more freely, to feel more liberated in their learning journey, right? And I think that that’s what I enjoy most, and I think that that’s what we bring to school partners is is this this bright light in the middle of a space that is not necessarily as bright as we would like it to be right now. Because the schools where you work they’re overwhelmed.

They’re having significant issues with student absenteeism, students feel disengaged, or there are just situations in their life that make it really hard for them to be present at school. I mean, can you just like paint a picture? I mean, like what are the experiences like for girls who are a part of Project Scientist?

Is this an after-school program, or is it like something that happens in the summer or during school? So, you know, we’re with we’re with our students year-round. So, you know, whether that’s in the fall after-school, fall and spring after-school programming, in the summer we do collaborative STEM camps with corporate partners throughout the summer and multiple multiple I was going to say countries.

Actually, yes, we do have a program in Mexico, but you know, throughout the country. And the things that I really love, so I was at camp yesterday and I asked a student, I was like, "So, what are you learning?" And so, this this term we’re doing fashion sustainability, which they are enjoying, they are loving this theme. And I’m a fashion girl myself, so I’m also loving this theme.

And she says, "We’re helping people." And I’m like, "How are you helping people?" She was so excited about it, which is a part of the curriculum. There’s always this layer of leadership, right? Of how we’re getting girls to think critically and solve their community problems and things of that nature.

So, when her first comment to me was, "We’re helping people." I said, "Yes, this is working." And then she elaborated and they part of their their designing of clothes and and looking at textiles and upcycling and things of that nature is also creating clothes that are more accessible for people who have disabilities. And and she spoke about that so clearly and and it just it lit me up, right? And then I vividly remember last year at camp when a student said, her we they drew on these little boards and she said, "When I’m at Project Scientist, I’m not sad." Which was to me like, "Okay, we’re doing the work that we need to be doing." Have you Have you seen schools start to adapt or sorry, like implement maybe some of the best practices?

Like is there any sort of like a cross-pollination? Yeah. So, you know, it’s it’s funny cuz my team and I were just talking about this.

We are relaunching one of our programs. It’s called the Elevated Institute, which allows teachers who may not necessarily be a part of our program to learn the Project Scientist difference, right? How do you foster belonging in your classroom?

How do you teach STEM from a racial gender equity standpoint? And So, that’s the way in which we are trying to share, you know, the way that we do what we do with teachers across the country. And also providing teachers with community.

So, the Institute is not a a one-off piece. It There are a couple of components with the Institute where every teacher has an action plan. So, when they come, we we want to see your lesson plan.

We want to help you work through it. Like this is not just a, you know, sometimes you go to a to a training session and you don’t walk away with anything. You might feel inspired for, you know, a couple days, but what are the tangible tools that you can go back to your classroom and say, "Let me pull this back out.

Let me utilize this and if I need a refresher, I know the Project Science Assistant is going to meet with me or they have an option for me to connect with them on a monthly basis, I can get that refresher." And so that’s one of the ways that we are trying to essentially spread what we learn, what we know, and essentially who we are with folks who are also like-minded. Yeah, I mean that’s the I mean that is a theory of change and I think this is the power of nonprofits being able to come in and sort of push education in dimensions where they don’t necessarily have the capacity or the support to do so themselves. I was talking about the Cuz like part of this is like schools teachers know that there’s a lot that they are not having the opportunity to to integrate into the classroom.

They have lots of required the content and standardized tests. When you think about like the folks that you recruit for Project Scientist, I mean are they are they generally former teachers? Like what is the profile of someone who’s like really effective at this like sort of combination of STEM education plus leadership development?

Is people that that I the folks that I have I think been drawn to the most are people who have either one seen themselves as a scientist at one point and took a different path and or folks who resonate with going down the path of becoming or engaging in the STEM field and being one of the only. And so women who would say, "I was the only such as woman in my cohort of, you know, at my in my class at whatever school, you know. I was just me and one other woman or it’s just, you know, so they still have such a connection to understanding what that journey was like.

And that is one of the things that I think fuels our work. You know, part of the program model is connecting to women mentors for the girls. So, they are often times really surprised when they meet someone who is the chemist behind the lotion that they use.

And she looks like them. And I think it’s it’s been it has not been a struggle for us to find those type of folks because they are drawn to to the work, but I think part of the reason that they are is because their own personal journey in STEM as a woman. The importance of having that experience with the journey and understanding like what it looks like to get there.

You mentioned that you ran for office. Are you willing to dive into that a bit more? What was the position you ran for?

Mhm. So, I I hear about the experience. Running for office is kind of a crazy experience.

Most people do not even could not even fathom what is involved. They just see, you know, candidates maybe on TV or if, you know, maybe someone goes to their door. Yeah.

You could peel back the curtain for us. That was such a interesting season. I was literally so idealistic.

I had just gra- I graduated from college in May. I went to a public policy school. And I I think at the time I was actually supposed to be going to seminary.

I wasn’t supposed to go back home. And and I’m not going to seminary, which is another very very weird story. So, went back home and I was just really frustrated with what I was seeing in my own hometown, you know, like it was nothing good comes out of this city, basically.

And in my mindset, I was like, I’m I’m going to I’m just going to I’m going to put my foot in the door and I want to help. So, in May I graduate, in August I get the paperwork and and the you you go to City Hall, you get the petition, you get your signatures, and we ran a great campaign. We ran a great campaign.

My mother was my campaign manager. My donations came from college friends. I mean, I still have little $25 checks from with a Hello Kitty checkbook that my friend in undergrad had.

And they and they sent, you know, all they could send. I mean, we were just fresh out of college at the end of a few recession years. It’s 2011, 2010, 2011, and I took I probably ran that campaign on like 500 bucks, honestly.

And and my my grandmother would let me go into her her office and and print pamphlets and, you know, it was very very homegrown. Very homegrown. Every Sunday morning putting leaflets out on cars and you know, going to the local paper, which ironically I worked at that newspaper when I was a high school student.

And so, when I said I was running, they gave me I’m sure I earned it, but they, you know, I I got their endorsement, which was really cool. And you know, my mother and I dressed in all black the night you can put your signs out, right? So, we we had put our signs all over the city at like 1:00 in the morning.

So, when people woke up, they saw the elect Patricia Johnson signs. I mean, it was it was a good time, but the campaign is not to be compared to actually doing the work. And so, once we once I got elected, I was on city council for years.

The first year, I was a councilwoman. The second year, I became vice mayor. And I was on the finance committee.

And this is in the season where Michigan had a Governor Snyder who was doing the emergency financial management policy. And almost every black community in the state of Michigan had an emergency manager. And so, we were able to avoid a deficit, to not have an emergency financial manager.

And I sat on this council. So, I’m 20, 22 years old. My high school dean is the mayor.

And my high school counselor is also It was crazy. My high school counselor is also a council person. And it’s just very I learned a lot.

And I do think in those four years, we could say we kept the city out of a deficit. We invested in young people. We maintained At the time, there was also a lot of controversy around resources in regards to water.

We had a kept our water filtration plant. So, I probably went from being 21 to like 55 in those four in those four years, you know? So, yeah.

That was that. And what did you study in college? Hm.

Social policy. So, So, all all things well, I mean, at the time, immigration is still ironically immigration is also really important now, but it was social My So, my degree is technically in social politics, social policy is what they call it. Social relations and public policy is what they call it.

And so, all things race, gender, class, and and and the policy implications, historical analysis. So, I would I was studying things like the Federalist Papers and Tocqueville. So, most people go into pre-law with that.

And I I honestly I just got think I just lucked up because I loved it. I love I still love it. You know, one of my favorite books when Affirmative Action was white, you know, whiteness of a different color.

You know, the the social contract theories is probably one of my favorite. So, now I’m nerding out, Alex. And I didn’t see myself as a scientist.

Now, mind you, I went and got a doctorate, which is social science to the to the core, you know, doing mixed methods studies and and interviews and and and qualitative methods and all those things. That’s technically a form of science, right? But but people don’t necessarily see that as a hardcore science, right?

It’s not a chemist in a lab, you know. It’s funny cuz I also studied political science, but it was a lot of I was a history buff, and so I took a lot of classes that were sort of like socio-political history. I also kind of jumped around.

I took like you know, political history of Brazil part two cuz I missed part one. And it’s it’s hard to know exactly I mean, I don’t know about you, but I’ve no doubt that my education has really helped and inform my work, but it’s also you know, a lot of the skills that I really use day-to-day are like a lot more generalized. Mhm.

And like coming back to Project Scientist, as you think about sort of the trajectories of the girls that you work with, I mean, do you think all of them are actually destined for STEM? Or do you see STEM as sort of like the domain where you build some of these leadership skills, but you actually have girls maybe going on to other other things? Do you have any pre- like girls that want to go into pre-law.

I I think absolutely. I think that the majority of the girls will potentially pursue STEM. But, so I’ll say this, my my vision is that when I’m I don’t know 55 years old and my dream is that a girl from Project Scientist will win like the Nobel Prize in chemistry or something like that.

Like that that is my absolute dream. So, I I do believe that a lot of our students will pursue science or some form of science. But, I’m also excited about girls being a disruptor, being a leader in whatever capacity they choose, and I think the beauty of the work is giving them access both to the technical skill set around science, but also to the bravery to be able to choose whatever they want, and to be bold about whatever choice that is.

Whether they are the only person in that particular class or whether, you know, whatever the case may be, it’s it’s about like fostering because I think you and I both know that the stats are will suggest that it is not that girls are not good at STEM. It’s the confidence around can I do STEM, which is more a cultural issue where we have consistently said that a scientist looks like the guy from Back to the Future and not like me, right? Or other women.

It looks like, you know, the guy with the white lab coat. And case in point, yesterday again I was at one of our great partners at at our camp yesterday in Charlotte, and I saw a older woman, an older African-American woman with her beautiful locks and she was in the lab with like all of the all the devices. It was so cool to see and I and it it made me feel like a little girl cuz I have never seen, you know, this is this particular partner does lithium and she had like, you know, what those speaker things and it was like a bunch of them up on the wall and she was pouring something into one thing and it was so and I’m like at the window doing like this, "Hey!" You know, like, "What are you doing?

I want to see. It’s so can you, you know, so so I’ve got 50 girls who are seeing this and I am feeling like an 11-year-old thinking this is so cool. What is she making?

You know, it just it sparked something different even as as a grown woman versus Back to the Future, we’re both history buffs. So, Back to the Future used to be one of my favorite movies, you know, love Back to the Future. But nobody in Back to the Future really looks like me, you know, Biff didn’t look like me obviously and Do they even have any main characters that were women?

I’m trying to even I can’t think of one. This not outside of the love interest, you know. Or or even the funny movie Yeah, even the funny movie Weird Science.

-Huh. Do you remember that movie where they made their own Weird Science? You haven’t seen Weird Science?

It’s another really great These are like early ’90s movies. Now we got to do a whole podcast on early ’90s movies cuz you haven’t seen this movie, Alex. You have to watch it.

With like Anthony Michael Hall and Kelly LeBrock. They basically create their own woman. Downey Jr. is in it.

Okay. Come on now. I’m Oh god.

Okay. Okay. So, so yeah, but I I mean I the what’s the plot they they’re they So what is the plot of this?

They concoct a woman? They make their They create their own woman and they become very very popular because everybody thinks that that’s their girlfriend or their so-and-so and it’s a thing. It’s a thing.

But it’s a It’s a funny movie. It’s I mean, it’s in the same canon of like Sweet Sixteen or or Sixteen Candles and The Breakfast Club. It’s that whole genre of films.

Got it. A little bit of coming of age. Yes.

Yes. If I if I wasn’t working for Project Scientist I would so the woman in that movie is the She’s not the sci- Again, she’s not the scientist. No, she’s the creation.

She’s the experiment, yeah. The experiment. Again, hello.

Anyway. We can go on and on and on about this. Maybe going back to pop culture, what are some movies What are some movies or or maybe let’s say broadening the lens to have to like sort of any example in pop culture where you think they get it right where there’s like just like the right representation cuz like there’s movies where there are women but it like to your point it’s like there’s off They’re often the love interest.

Yeah, anything come to mind that kind of does a good job of like it’s not just guys that do that. Yeah, well I think Black Panther does a good job because the sister is a phenomenal scientist, right? And in both of those movies, the first movie and the second movie.

And in the second movie both she and the young lady that goes to MIT and is basically light-years ahead of everybody else in her skill set. No which I think is so phenomenal. I mean, you know, in the second movie she creates the tool that finds vibranium and nobody else can do it.

So, now she’s a she’s a CIA CI the CIA is now trying to track her down cuz this is such an important weapon, you know. And here she is a freshman or sophomore at MIT knowing how to do this and doing it easily, which I love because my favorite Avenger period is Iron Man simply because Iron Man technically had no real like physical prowess like everybody else. He had to use his brain to create his power.

And it’s the same thing with her. She actually now has a there’s a Disney Channel we can you know I can talk about pop culture all the time. There’s a Disney Channel show about her called Ironheart now.

I just watched maybe the first episode. So, I’m going to see how it goes, but it’s the same thing with her. You she her her power is from her her brain how how she thinks how she creates.

Which I think is phenomenal. It’s so funny cuz Yeah, I mean as you’ve been describing that I’ve been actually trying to think about movies where that is the case where it’s not just a woman’s seductive skills cuz there’s lots of that, right? There’s lots of like women who like leverage their their bodies or or just or seduction, but it’s like but it’s different from sort of like using your brain and like leveraging knowledge and then the examples I can come up with the woman is the villain.

So, like I think of like Game of Thrones you have like Cersei’s. Yeah. And even the the the drag the woman with the dragon what’s her name?

Daenerys? Daenerys, yeah. Isn’t it Daenerys?

It is it is Daenerys. She was And she had this character arc where you’re like, oh wow this like powerful like female protagonist and then like they finish and it’s like no, antagonist. Yes.

I was like, oh, yeah, okay. But there’s also, okay, Gladiator, the OG Gladiator. Oh, actually, no, the the sister is she’s sort of like conflicted, but you can tell that she wants to be good.

But I would say I would say Gladiator one, she’s still love interest. It’s just sort of a weird creepy love interest because it’s like her brother. Yeah, she’s a love interest.

But you you got it right with Daenerys because even the way she starts out leading, she’s a protector. She is a fierce protector. And then all of a sudden, she she turns into the she burns everybody down.

And I I think that’s something to be curious about, too, because I think what happens where sh you know, she internalizes her own trauma and and it comes out that way because because she initially I think it’s honestly because they killed off her folks, you know, a couple of her main folks. But it doesn’t really give an excuse for the for the way that that was written or how her character turned out. But to my point, I actually think that that’s the way I envision most leaders to be, which is she really protected she she took the folks who were enslaved in in Game of Thrones, that whole and they all end up becoming her army.

And then she gave them the choice. She was like, you can stay with me and I’ll take good care of you or you can go. Like, this is a free will thing.

I’m not going to force you to serve me, which I think made her such a great leader in that film. And then to your point, at the end, it was everybody everybody dies. I mean, I I it is really fun to sort of go down, you know, pop culture.

And we could probably talk about this for hours. And we should next time we’re in the same city. I I think pop culture is sort of like a distraction.

I think part of when I think about my own experience as someone who could have gotten to STEM and I’m glad I guess I’m glad I didn’t. I you know I everybody has their own path. But going into STEM when I was in school it was like you were you were kind of opting into the whole vibe.

It’s like oh, are you going to be one of those math kids and you’re going to hang out with the math nerds. We didn’t even have computer science, so I but like I’m sure it would have been the same the same group. And you know, it’s it’s like when you’re in school that is really meaningful your identity matters a lot.

It matters and it’s and like what matters to you in school is way more than just you know, what is my career path? It’s like who are the friends that I’m going to spend time with? And so I’m thinking about that paired with now the media that you’re consuming.

And so you kind of create this sort of you’re almost like deciding for kids by defining what these sort of pass and tail I What do you like what needs to happen? I mean Project Scientist you know well I I think your organization needs to grow. And for for any funders who are listening I assume that you have some big ambitious ideas about how you could scale your work.

I scared my team yesterday What else like what are the other con What are the other conditions? Yeah, like Mhm. The conditions for growth.

I I think well you you raised a really good point around the identity for for as my VP of programs would say for kiddos at that level. As much as we claim to understand what Gen Z and this new generation are experiencing, I don’t think we really do. Because the impact of social media, the impact of living in unprecedented times.

I mean, it’s it’s just so many things are exasperated. And I also think that I don’t know if we fully grasp what we need to do as educators to meet them where they are. Which is why one of the things that we do is we we have focus groups with our students try to get a feel for what the true need is.

Because I mean, we just didn’t Allison, we were I remember my freshman orientation at Michigan State and they were like, "Don’t get on the Facebook." When it was still the Facebook, right? Like we we did not fully get immersed into a social media age in middle school and high school and and how that impacts self-esteem, how that impacts cultural identity, right? And to add other social and political dynamics to the world that we’re living in, I think we have to be a little bit more intentional and observant around meeting specific needs of students and allow them to teach us just as much as we’re teaching them.

And I also think in addition to that, we have to consider holistic learning. That we can’t separate what we do from the reality of of how people are living and experiencing everyday life, right? So Yeah.

Yeah. That’s really that’s powerful. It’s it’s I mean, I think it’s a a great a great place to wrap up.

I’ll I’ll I’ll give you like sort of a a chance to sort of share anything else that we might have missed. And then for folks who are listening and want to learn more, maybe you can help like where should they go? But first, is there anything else that you that you you to share?

You know, I can’t believe you were in Detroit and didn’t let me know. And two, the next time we do a podcast, your homework is watching Weird Science. I I expect Alex to do that.

Do a whole podcast on Weird Science. Yeah. And and and yeah.

I I expect to see your next op-ed needs to be I watched Weird Science and here’s what I learned. Okay. And and I think that’s it.

I’d love for people to follow us. We’re on LinkedIn. We have our our website, projectscientist.org.

We we just closed applications for new partners. We have We had more than enough, which I’m so excited about. And so we have all of our partners right now for the fall.

Then we’ll open it back up for spring. We’re engaging in a few new cities this fall. And the Elevated Institute is going to be in the Twin Cities on August 6th with Google.

And so if folks want to come and learn about what we do and and and, you know, want to be a part of our community, that’s a great way to join.