Michelle Shomo Pierce: How a STEM educator uses AI

Every year at the beginning of the school year, I have to take everybody’s school calendars, which are PDFs, and I have to manually enter them into our Google calendar. And this year, you know, a friend of mine was like, I’m pretty sure ChatGPT can do that. And so I went and I prompted it.

I said, "Chat, I have these PDFs of these school calendars that I need to import into my Google calendar." It literally had me upload the PDF. It was able to pull all of the dates, put it into the right format. So, that’s a task that would have taken me probably an hour, an hour and a half, and I was able to do it in minutes.

So, we’re here in the virtual AIDS Studios with Michelle Shimo Pierce. She’s an educator at Malard Creek STEM Academy, which is a charter school in in North Carolina. Yep.

Where in North Carolina? Green. Charlotte, North Carolina.

Charlotte. Time. Yeah.

And Michelle, you and I have crossed paths in more than one place. I think it was certainly at the the AI show, the ASGSV Summit. And you’re sort of like in the circuit.

You’re you’re one of those sort of early adopter educators who has been modeling what AI literacy actually looks like in the classroom. I think you’re also the first you’re the second educator that we’ve had on who’s like in the classroom. So I I’m really excited to hear more about just really everything especially just like how you are like sort of reacting to all the hype, all the conversation, all the excitement, all the all the concerns.

But maybe you could just help kick us off. Tell us about paint a picture of sort of your classroom, sort of your day-to-day. I think a lot of listeners who aren’t educators, it’s been a long time since they’ve been in the classroom and so they may even forget what it feels like to sort of like walk into the building and sort of like even like the smells of that like fake plastic that like that fake wood those like small tables.

I don’t know if that those are desks that you have. Yeah. No, so my classroom is actually a pretty cool spot.

I wish we could see, but it’s we kind of create it’s like a mood room. So we do like we don’t do overhead lighting. We have like side lighting.

I have a diffuser with essential oils going, LED lights around the board. Sometimes we’ll have some kind of like lowfi music playing. So, I kind of like to create a space where the kids come in and they kind of chill.

I feel like it’s a good introduction to, you know, as we transition into class. But, my day is busy. Wear lots of different hats.

So, you know, I have some time when I first get in to get last minute things together and then I move into a morning duty. So, I’m in the hallway greeting students as they arrive, which I actually love. Relationship building is a big part of why I think I’m so successful as a teacher.

And so, that is like my first touch point with the students where I can greet them with a smile, greet them by name, see how they’re doing. And then after that, I move into teaching my first class. And so for my classroom, it’s a little bit different than a lot of traditional core teachers that are teaching the same thing all day long to just different home rooms.

I’m actually teaching a different curriculum every single class. So there’s a little bit of a shift and transition of my brain and my materials to prepare for a different lesson. So I teach I support sixth, seventh, and eighth grade.

Every student has to take my class every year, which I’m very thankful my administration kind of saw the value of all students having a computer science education. And so they were we were adopters of that before it was a thing. So North Carolina actually just enacted graduation requirements for all students to have to take computer science in either middle school or high school, but my school was already there.

So every student takes my class every single year. Which is it’s a good thing, but then it’s also on me because some students don’t want to necessarily be here. So I have to kind of work to get buy in from them and get them excited about what we’re talking about.

And so I shift through my three classes. Have a lunch duty, then at the end of the day I have a dismissal duty. So just kind of a lot of transitions I would say before I go home.

And and is lunch duty you’re like just making sure the kids aren’t like throwing food at each other. Are you sort of like wandering as you’re like sitting down at different tables? Like I’m trying to remember.

I know we had teachers on lunch. I can’t remember what they did. Yeah, I mean it’s kind of some teachers walk, some teachers sit.

For me, I think it depends on the day. If I’ve been on my feet a lot, I might sit during lunch duty. But yeah, just making sure that the students are staying in their seats, nobody’s doing anything, like you said, throwing food or anything else.

But you know, it’s kind of it’s not too demanding, put it that way. What like what is it like these days with, you know, I think I I was just talking to a friend of mine about like thank god that we managed to like ek our way out of high school before social media had really blown up. I mean, I had a Facebook account, but I had like one of the first Facebook accounts, and it was like my senior year, or I guess like late junior year.

It Yeah. Like I mean, what are the types of things that just, you know, good or bad, that just come up with technology? Like, are kids just like on TikTok all day during lunch?

Well, they’re not. We our students are not allowed to use their phones during the school day at all. And actually North Carolina just enacted a law for students are not allowed to use their devices during the instructional day at all unless specified by the teacher.

So we do our very best to make sure that students have their devices put away. They do get creative and find ways sometimes. But for the most part, you know, we do we do a good job of that and the students do a good job of being responsible, but you know, students are very savvy.

So, you know, now they’re using Google Docs, the shared Google Docs to chat with each other during the day. Like, they find ways to be creative. But we do have issues where kind of like social media and chat groups cause drama that then trickles into schools.

I think that that’s something pretty new over the past few years. And so, our school has had to adjust our behavior our handbook, our student handbook to address those concerns. So now if there is drama even if it happens at home but it comes into the building there can be consequences.

So I think just trying to keep up with the changing times and you know adjust as necessary has been really important. Yeah. I mean so much so much drama right like it’s I it it feels like a privilege to be able to actually like you know I would go home from school and that was it.

There wasn’t it wasn’t like sort of this constant state of seeing what my friends were actually doing. Like FOMO just feels different when you can’t actually see all the fun that your friends are up to without you. Yeah.

And we actually do lessons on that. So one of the things that I do is I teach a digital citizenship curriculum. I use Common Sense Education’s free curriculum.

And so we talk about those types of things. We’re actually running through scenarios of, okay, so, you know, there’s this girl Susie and her and her friends were supposed to go see this new movie, but then Susie got in trouble at the last minute, and her friends go to the movies without her. Like, how do we feel about that?

Would you have gone? Would you have stayed? And then Susie saying their social media post about how much fun they’re having.

You know, should you be posting? Should you tag Susie and say, "Susie, we wish you were here." So, those are the types of conversations that I’m having with my students. We do this every single year.

We go through there’s roughly like six lessons per grade level. And so we go through and talk about those types of things so that, you know, we’re having the conversations to hopefully give them the tools that when they’re in these real life situations, they’re like, "Oh yeah, we talked about this. Okay, I need to work on deescalating, you know, and I tell them like the world is not going to end if you put your phone down and walk away from the group chat for an hour or you step away from social media." Like it’s okay.

Yeah. What? What are you What are you supposed to do if your friend gets in trouble?

I guess I think I would still go to the movie. Especially if they deserved it. I mean, if it was if it was maybe an unjust grounding, I might maybe in solidarity you have to skip the movie.

But I don’t know. Yeah. Do you have I mean like do you give advice to that level or is it more about having the students sort of giving the students agency to just like think about what they would do as opposed to telling them what they’re supposed to do?

Absolutely. Giving them agency. So, we talk a lot about how these discussions are not about right or wrong.

They’re just about getting you to critically think, but also about being able to hear somebody else’s perspective. And so, you know, maybe somebody else in the class looked at it a different way that you hadn’t considered. And so, you know, we talk about how even adults, you know, especially with our political climate being as crazy as it is, how adults do not always do a good job of listening to other perspectives and considering people’s viewpoints other than their own.

And so, you know, I talk to them about like that’s what that’s what we’re trying to do. So, it’s like computer science is the class, but it’s really more the vehicle of which I’m like trying to impart a whole lot of skills on my students. And so we’re just using computer science and digital citizenship to do so.

But yeah, I’m definitely trying to get them critically thinking. We do a lot with growth mindset, perseverance, how to keep going when things get a little tough. You know, we call this the microwave generation because they want everything instant and fast.

So you know, well, what happens if it doesn’t work the first time? Because it’s not going to always work the first time, just like our, you know, my tech here didn’t work the first time. So trying to just model that and walk through it with them to let them know like it’s okay.

So it’s, you know, it’s it’s a pretty cool opportunity that I have, not only to teach the content, but also to teach those 21st century skills that they really need to help them in life. Well, it’s a lot on your shoulders. Because computer science as is that’s hard enough to tether’s responsibility to to teach kids CS.

And then also taking on digital citizenship. And this was all before AI and then now this thing chat well I guess it’s really GPT 3.5 like November is it November 30 2022 it gets released. I’m just so curious like what was your first interaction with whether with language models specifically?

You probably were tracking AI before as a computer science person. But I I’m like just so curious like did were you the f like did you use it yourself for the first time? Did you like catch a student cheating with it or cheating?

Yeah. No, I think it was definitely me using it first, but I will tell you like I am not afraid to admit I was like, you know, of the mindset like I am not getting on this AI train. Like I lit like there are not many things that I like will say I am not going to do and AI was one that I said I am not going to do this because to your point like I’m doing so many things that I just felt like I didn’t have the bandwidth to like learn about not learn something new because I’m constantly learning new things but something on such a large scale and you know it was very kind of you know I got volunteered to be on this panel I got volunteered to go to this conference and then I was like okay this AI thing is happening I got asked to present emphasis asked me to present on AI and I was like okay like clearly the signs are all pointing to the fact that this is coming and I need to to get there.

So from then I kind of shifted my mindset and this started learning. And so I did start trying things on my own. And and it’s still a journey, right?

Like even now there are so many things that I’m just learning that like you know ChatGPT for example can do to make my life easier. And so that’s really been it for me is like because I don’t want to be one of those educators that gets stuck and is like no you know we’re doing things the way we’ve always done things like that that that model doesn’t work and it’s not sustainable. So I’m trying to actively learn and implement these things into my own lives and then so I can tell other people about them as well.

Yeah. Well, and as someone in sort of the computer science space, you know, I talk a lot about like the the the a completely appropriate skepticism that people had because it’s like, you know, we heard about chat GBT and I was also it took me a while. I I didn’t really use it until like really January.

Of 23 which isn’t that long but it was like for someone who’s running a nonprofit called the AI education project I think that surprises people but you know like anybody who was sort of in the tech world we’ve been hearing all about the metaverse we’ve been hearing all about blockchain and crypto and NFTTS and and so I was I was just like okay ready for this to be another just total overhyped like gimmick technology and I’m trying to think for me it was my my husband was and my husband was like kind of always a little skeptical. I think he I think he like was respectfully like, "Oh yeah, the AI education project." but then he was like, "You actually need to come and see this." And he was actually writing blog posts for his company using GBT3.5 and he was like, "This is kind of good." He’s like, "This is kind of this is surprisingly good." did like were your students a step ahead of you, would you say? Like I’m just kind of curious.

Was there like a period where your students were actually using it before you were or or did they kind of like did it take a little longer for it to kind of like hit the bloodstream? Yeah, I think it took a little bit longer to hit the bloodstream. And we actually so you know, one of the things that can be frustrating, I think, about education is that it can be slow adopters and slow to change.

And so even, you know, we’re learning a lot now. Like I had to go to an actual state sponsored AI workshop conference last year. So our school is like now working on adopting and creating some AI policies for for our students because we don’t have anything right now.

And so, you know, I’m the students aren’t necessarily using it in class or talking about using it, but but we know they’re using it, right? And so, and that’s kind of the message that I’ve try to put out there for educators. Because some of the presenting that I do is actually specifically towards educators.

It’s, you know, this is not one of those things that we can just say, "Oh, we’re just going to block it." you know, some districts have have done that where they’ve just blocked it and it’s like I don’t know that that’s the the most responsible or realistic approach because the students are using it. And so, you know, one of the things that I try to do is to kind of remove the veil a little bit because when when we talk about AI, people think about LLMs, but it’s like it’s so much simpler than that. And so the way I approach it with my teacher presentations and also with my students is we talk about like the basic stuff, right?

When you’re using your Alexa, like that’s AI, you know? And so I think when we kind of demystify it a little bit, so my eighth graders, we actually do a artificial intelligence curriculum. So, they get to see how recommener systems work and we do a really fun activity where they actually get to be a recommener system and predict whether or not somebody would like a particular TV show.

So just kind of breaking it down to those simple levels to to explain to people what AI actually is, I think is a little it’s a little bit it’s helpful because when you start talking about LLMs and all of that, like I feel like people get a little scared or a little overwhelmed, but it’s like AI is simple. Like you’re already using it. These are the ways that you’re using it.

It’s a tool. And so, how can we teach students how to use the tool responsibly? I think that’s the most important thing.

It’s not trying to block it or ban it, but teaching them how to use it responsibly because it’s just, you know, it’s a change in it’s just a changing tool just like, you know, before we had Chromebooks, you know, then Chromebooks get introduced and it’s like it’s a tool, but we have to teach them how to use it responsibly. And I think AI is the same thing because I’ve seen personally how it’s benefited me, especially with a lot of like administrative tasks. I have two children and we’re all in different school districts.

So, every year at the beginning of the school year, I have to take everybody’s school calendars, which are PDFs, and I have to manually enter them into our Google calendar so that, you know, everybody knows where they’re supposed to be when. And this year, you know, a friend of mine was like, "I’m pretty sure ChatGPT can do that." And so I went and I prompted it. I said, "Chat, I have these PDFs of these school calendars that I need to import into my Google calendar." It literally had me upload the PDF.

It was able to pull all of the dates, put it into the right format. I was able to save it to my computer, then upload it to my Google class or my Google calendar. So that’s a task that would have taken me literally probably an hour, an hour and a half to do and I was able to do it in minutes.

So like to me that is such a success story and that is like that’s why we need to learn what what it’s capable of instead of just being scared. Dang, I didn’t I didn’t realize I could do that. See in the like the Yeah, the ICS format or something.

Yes, Google calendar can read. Yeah, that’s brilliant. That’s kind of it’s I I think there’s this interesting like gap between sort of playing around with the tools and kind of like oh yeah this is cool it can like write poems and then like having spending a little bit more time on that learning journey till you get to the slightly more complicated but really powerful use cases.

Are there any examples of like that other teachers who aren’t necessarily power users that have surfaced that you’re just like, "Oh, I like that’s just someone who’s kind of figured something out for themselves that maybe you that you wouldn’t have necessarily expected." I’m trying to think, you know, we don’t we haven’t really in my particular building, there hasn’t been a lot of conversation about AI. I think that I’ve been fortunate one because I’m asking to go to these different workshops because I want to increase my own personal knowledge. So, I’ve been able to hear from other teachers about things that they’re doing using AI, different, you know, websites, but you know, sometimes it can get overwhelming.

And I think that is one of the concerns with education, right, is there’s so many tools. There’s so many products. And so, sometimes as teachers like we shut down because it’s like another tool, another product.

It’s it’s just going to be something else for me to learn. And so again trying to shift the mindset of like yes initially it is something for you to learn but on the back end it’s going to save you a lot of time and trouble. So we’ve talked we have talked about like even simple stuff like using LLMs for like parent communication is like a big one right like running things through and like okay please make this a little less snarky or you know take take my upset tone out of this message.

So those types of things are definitely, creating, you know, lesson plans are always, you know, pretty straightforward or presentations. Those are probably the basic ways. I don’t know that I’ve heard anything like super like extreme that any teachers in the building are using, but it’s more kind of the simple things as people are starting to get on board and understand the benefits of using AI.

It’s a little surprising to me because one of one of my hopes and dreams is that we can we can sort of help bring schools onto the learning journey by seating them with folks like you, educators who are not necessarily I mean I I don’t I don’t know if you would call yourself an AI expert or not. And I I don’t think of myself as an AI expert, but I think you’re someone who’s a sort of informed user who is like, you know, far enough along the learning journey to, you know, bring others along with you. And but what what I’m hearing from you is that it’s there just isn’t the time or like head space for people to really lean in or maybe even a little bit of hesitancy like and you’re really busy.

Your job isn’t to just go and train your your peers to use AI. Like what do you think is standing in the way of like I mean have you had conversations with your peers about AI? Are they are they like against it because of cheating or are they just sort of not curious?

Like what’s what do you think is standing the way between you and sort of like bringing sort of maybe like half of your school to sort of where you are which is like really curious and you know experimenting with the tools trying to figure out how they could use them. Yeah. I mean I think like sometimes like being the computer science person like they think that like all that stuff just belongs to me like even computer science right so there are benefits to integrating computer science even into other core subjects but a lot of people I think that they think that there’s like such an expertise required to do these things that they’re not capable of it which is hilarious I mean I I do not have a computer science background at all it’s actually.

Yeah, my first degree was in biology. And then I was an elementary education teacher for years before taking some time off to raise my kids. And so I came back to and I was doing some substitute teaching and I ended up in the middle school and I was like, "Oh, I kind of like the schedule over here." And so at the time the only position that was available was computer science.

So first I said, "Well, I’ll sub, you know, in the class until you find somebody." And then I said, "Well, why not? Why won’t I just take the job full-time? U my dad is actually a computer scientist by trade.

Which is pretty funny. And my son actually studies computer science. He’s at a trade high school.

But yeah, I didn’t have I didn’t have the the background knowledge. I don’t even think I took computer science classes in college. So, but I just kind of trusted my ability to be able to learn new things, right?

And so those first couple years was me learning right with my students. So those the first couple years like every grade level did the same thing. And so I would make sure that I kind of had mastered that one curriculum and then the next year I would introduce a new one and I’d learn that with my students and then I got to a point where I felt very pretty comfortable.

So I think that a lot of it is that like teachers just feeling like it’s outside of their comfort zone or it doesn’t kind of fit in with what they’re what they’re doing. And as a computer science teacher, being the only one here at my school, it’s definitely a silo, right? So I’m the only computer science teacher and largely nobody knows what I do you know and so you know my administration like they’ll see glimpses of things like you know presentations that I’m doing you know different places they’ll see it on like LinkedIn or you know I have a Tik Tok channel where I’ll post videos and but it’s like it’s still very like like that’s your thing you know what I mean like ELA math science science, people are like, "Okay, I could figure it out." But everybody feels like computer science is just such a technical thing that there’s no way that they could do it or they could get it.

And so I think that that’s largely the barrier is people having the understanding. So I’m part of the computer science teachers association, also known as CSTA. And we like to say that every teacher is a computer science teacher, right?

But it’s just getting that buy in. And I think that is amplified more with AI. They feel like it’s such a technical thing that they don’t understand that they can’t do.

And so it would just be needing to like show and model, but again, I think sometimes my administration doesn’t know all the things that I’m doing with AI. So, it’s hard to like ask me to do things because they don’t know that I’m capable of them, I guess, is the the best way to say it. Dude, it’s just so funny cuz like you know your people are flying you around the country to go and present as an expert at these like huge conferences and your school maybe doesn’t even realize what they have, you know, right in their building.

And I suspect that might be the case in a lot of schools, right? There’s like that one teacher that, you know, the administration just doesn’t realize could be like an amazing you know, mentor. Yeah.

But but you can’t sort of force I mean I think this is what you mentioned this thing about edtech which what I’m hearing is like there’s just a little bit of heartburn from so many technologies that have been sort of like thrown into schools. For me it was the smartboards and I still remember my Spanish teacher like you know pushing through and she was so frustrated and she would actually complain. She was like I’m supposed to use a smartboard like okay class let’s use a stupid smartboard.

I could be using the chalkboard. And I guess your job is interesting because you’re not necessarily like the the proponent of AI. You’re not here to say everybody needs to be using AI.

You’re actually you talked about responsible use. You talked about you know, understanding the technology. Do you think about where school like the future of education like where school needs to go?

What things need to change? And maybe just focus on your school, like what do you think needs to change to for us to get to a place where more of your peers are able to understand and figure out how to integrate, you know, maybe it’s not AI, but even just computer science, which isn’t something we’ve talked about so much. You know, computational thinking is not just a computer science thing.

This is something that we can integrate into math into into science and social studies and English, right? But yeah, what is the barrier that that we need to break through and like how do we how do we do it? Yeah.

I think that you know I think that from a legislative level, you know, it’s important. I think that when people are told that they need to do something, they’re definitely more likely to do that. I also feel like, you know, statistics like people people like data, they like numbers.

So giving people the ability to see like there is a correlation between you know students getting a computer science education and their English testing scores going up or their math testing scores just because the type of thinking that is required in computer science is going to benefit them in every subject. So I think it’s that I think it’s administrators being trained and again you know the mindset you know a lot most administrators hopefully are former teachers so it’s still that same mindset of being pushed out of the comfort zone and I think that is probably what sets me apart and the reason why I’ve been so successful in the things that I’ve been doing even outside of the classroom is because yeah I’m terrified but I’m constantly pushing myself beyond my my level, right? So, every time I feel like, okay, I’m comfortable with something, I’m like, okay, what’s next?

Right? And so, I think that there needs to be a shift in mindset of that, too, as educators is we can’t just feel like we’ve gotten comfortable with where we are and with our subject matter. How can we push the envelope?

How can we move move to the next level? And I think for many people, like, you know, that that’s the difference. And so I think it would take somebody saying like, "Okay, we have to do this." I don’t know that a lot of educators are just going to volunteer and say, "Oh, yeah, like totally like I’m going to start doing computer science in my classroom because they’re so and and I don’t think it’s a knock.

I think that they’re so focused on their subject area and how every educator thinks that their subject area is the most important one, right? So by sometimes you feel like if I start trying to do something else, it’s going to take away from what I’m focusing on when really we’re just trying to like make them work together because it’s a more authentic learning experience when it’s integrated like that. Yeah.

I mean there has to be some incentive, right? And so like you can create incentives in the form of like requirements which is actually really important. It’s it’s not just like oh this is really cool because teachers are busy and they don’t necessarily have the time to go and totally overhaul their curriculum but that’s a so the so the stats about English scores and scores outside of computer science actually going up as kids are learning CS.

I guess it makes sense because a lot of I mean a lot of what we talk about at aiEDU is the importance of what we call like the leveraging the human advantage, you know, durable skills, critical thinking, problem solving, perseverance and computer science is sort of the like the embodiment of like problem solving and iteration. You’re sort of like the practice of computer science is almost constantly troubleshooting, debugging, iterating. And I could totally see how those skills are transferable.

But it is it’s interesting because CS I didn’t even have a CS class when I was in in high school. I think when AID was founded, CS was really a track like you talk about a silo and it was this sort of like track that some kids are going to get on. You know, the students will opt into like the AP computer science class and that’s because they want to go and get a job in computer science.

And you’re describing CS so every student is getting it. So really this is more like math where I use math in the abstract dayto-day but I’m not I’m not like writing out functions. I’m not using you know geometry in the literal sense but if someone asked me like is math important I would say of course I they’re just like intangibles that I’m sure that I developed by learning math and I’m kind of seeing that in the way that you’re describing CS.

How the kids feel about it? I mean, do are are there like have you seen kids kind of adopt an identity around technology that maybe wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t get the chance to go into that CS class? Yeah.

I I mean, I think in a few ways. I think definitely on the digital citizenship side for sure. Like I’ve heard students, you know, kind of call each other out like, "Okay, you’re not being a responsible digital citizen if you do that." so that’s always like a proud like a proud moment when I like, oh yes, you know, they I I actually are listening to me.

But yeah, so one of the things that I really try to do in my classroom to make CS like tangible and real to them is real world application and project- based learning, right? So every class period we are they are hands-on. They’re creating a project.

And so we talk a lot about how can we merge computer science, how can we merge AI with things that you’re already interested in. So for instance, with my eighth graders when we’re talking about AI, you know, it’s like what is a what is a real world problem that AI could help solve. And so we go through a whole process of them thinking through what’s I’m like whatever you care about.

I’m like, if you care about makeup, what’s the problem with makeup? You know, it’s like, well, sometimes, you know, you don’t know what makeup matches your skin tone. Okay, how could AI help solve that problem?

So, I’m constantly trying to get them to look at it from the lens of like not just a computer, but what is something you care about? What is an a real issue in the world? And how can we use computer science or AI to help improve things, help make somebody’s lives better?

Because that’s what’s important. And that’s something that I drill drill into them a lot. It’s like we’re not just coding for coding sake to make cool things.

We want to learn how we can use these tools to make people’s lives better. And you know, I I definitely could not finish this without talking about the equity perspective. And I think that is what initially kind of really got me into the whole AI conversation was I watched coded bias and it like blew my whole world apart, right?

So, I was already doing work with equity and computer science, but hadn’t really gotten, you know, into it from like an AI, facial recognition standpoint, but after watching coded bias and learning more about that, I was like, "Oh my gosh." And so, I teach at a title one school, so the majority of my where a large number of our students receive free or reduced lunch. The majority of our students here are black or brown. And so these are people whose lives are directly being impacted by decisions that are being made with these companies that are rolling out AI.

And so I tell my students, I don’t want them just to be users of of these of this the devices and this technology. I want them to understand I want them to understand the real world implications. So we talk about how you know AI is used in the justice system to determine who gets bail, right?

And so when you have a certain population of people that are disproportionately affected by that, like you need to know that that’s important. And so we actually with some of my older students, we actually have watchcoded bias and we’ve had conversations you know about, you know, some some places are using facial recognition. The police are using it to identify suspects.

Well, if we know that AI facial recognition doesn’t work as well the darker your skin is, that’s a huge problem. So again, trying to pull in these real world convers like I feel like I sometimes I feel like a mad one because I’m trying to accomplish so much in a semester but it it all feels so important to me and I care so much about my students that like how could I not try to share all of this with them and make sure that they understand. So it’s like yes this class is computer science but it’s like so much more than computer science class.

Yeah. And and and coded bias for our audience is this is MIT researcher Joy Bulamwini and she’s looking at I think a lot of different AI systems but the one that really stood out is the fact that facial recognition systems can misidentify women people with darker skin tones as you said and then there’s also use cases you mentioned policing like in housing like credit applications and I think what’s so fascinating about so first of all Joy was way ahead of the curve right this is prehat LGBT when AI was basically invisible. Like very few people were really talking about AI and yet these tools were all over society like in sort of very subtle insidious ways affecting people’s lives.

It’s hard to have agency over something like that if you’re not even aware that it’s happening. How do you deal with I mean whenever I get really into the weeds about you know these algorithic systems like welfare determination is another like really problematic example. It frustrates me and I’m even you know from a point of privilege you know my parents are Lebanese but I’m white presenting so like I you know I think the facial recognition probably works quite well on my face.

I can imagine it being extremely like dispiriting because you, you know, you can learn about these systems and yet it probably feels quite difficult to to have agency and like how do you how do you sort of guide students through this conversation about, you know, here are these challenges but without sort of just making them feel like depressed and, you know, afraid because that seems like a natural reaction to like learning about what’s what’s happening under their feet. Yeah, I know. I I definitely feel depressed and afraid sometime.

I have to just turn the news off. You know, I think I try to use it to inspire my students and encourage them. That it’s important for them to be in the, you know, to quote Hamilton, to be in the room where it happens, right?

So, no matter what industry, so we we make the connection between, okay, what do what what do you want to do when you grow up? And you know, no matter what they say, okay, well, how does computer science tie into that? So that they’re able to see that like no matter what they’re going to be doing, computer science is going to be a part of that.

And so I just encourage them to make sure again that they’re they’re not just users, but they’re decision makers. No matter what they’re doing, I want you I want you to be empowered. I want you to be a decision maker.

I want you to to not just let things happen to you. And so that’s kind of how I frame the conversation. Just trying to empower them more so than scare them.

And I mean, so far so good. I don’t know that you know, anybody has come and seemed terrified. I actually did have one of my returning, she’s going to be an eighth grader this year where we’ll be doing AI and she was asking me my thoughts on, you know, ethical AI use and she was like, can we have a classroom debate on ethical AI use?

I said, absolutely. So I’m super excited. I told her, I said, "Yeah, we can work together to put for to put a lesson where we get to to do that." But that’s the excitement for me is like seeing my students like wanting to even take their their knowledge further than what I’m giving them and like, you know, how can we how can we apply this?

And so, and that’s one of the things recently that I’ve got gotten into presenting on too is, you know, AI and like how can we balance using it, but also making sure that we’re cognizant of the privacy concerns and like where do we draw the line? And so, I recently co-presented on that at the CSTA national conference and I’m going to be doing a virtual version in the coming months. But I’m excited about continuing those conversations because that’s what it’s about, right?

It’s it’s again it’s not that like right or wrong, but it’s just like how far are we willing to go before we say it’s too much and just again an education like educating educating educating people on what’s happening and you know how we can all play our part. You weren’t just a computer science nerd from a young age because I think sometimes it’s easy for some it’s like you know the you know YouTube has all these like alpha male influencers who are like jacked and they’re like giving advice about dating and they’re like well you just need to be confident and just like well yeah sure but you’re also like ripped and you know like I it’s but it’s very different to have someone who like you study biology which is which is hard it’s not a cakewalk but it’s not there’s I assume you didn’t take any CS when you were studying biology. And so I think there’s a there’s a if I can do it, you can do it, credibility that you that you bring to to that with your kids.

You mentioned something though like there’s no right or wrong. I I like this because I think it’s we talked about giving kids agency. I think one of the challenging things that people in general have, but I think also educators, the challenge with computer science is you’re constantly making mistakes and iterating and troubleshooting.

I think teachers like to be right. They like to know what the right answer is. That’s kind of their job, right?

Is like I’m supposed to know the answer so I can tell my kids what’s what the correct answer is. You’re describing AI ethics as actually a place where there isn’t necessarily like a default right or wrong answer. Do you feel like that creates just like makes it easier for kids to kind of dip their toes in where they’re not necessarily afraid of like having the right answer and so they’re able to kind of like weigh in and kind of develop an opinion.

Yeah. And it’s not just our AI conversations. I mean that’s my whole classroom is hey like and I tell them all the time like we have a whole three before me where so the my classroom is set up for the students to work collaborative collaboratively.

They’re in groups of four because I want them to work through issues before they even come to me. And I tell them all the I’m like a lot of times you guys may get to the solution. Somebody in your group may get to the solution before I even can.

So I work very hard to and even in all the presenting I do I’m not presenting because I’m the expert, right? I’m just presenting because I’m the facilitator of this conversation and that’s how I try to approach my classroom in general as like the moderator, the facilitator of conversations. But yeah, my students I mean there’s so many of they’re so smart and you know I I definitely have no problem admitting like they’re like oh this is wrong or oh okay you’re right.

Yep. Thanks for pointing that out. I appreciate you.

You know, we have a reward system. They get rewarded for it. So I try I think that that speaks a lot to culture though.

And you know, you have to be confident enough in yourself to be okay with making mistakes and I am definitely okay with making mistakes. You know, technology goes wrong and it’s just like, you know, I think it’s important educators should always be modeling for our students. So, it’s it’s one thing for us to tell them you should, you know, do this, but it’s another thing for us to model.

So, if I’m modeling for them like, "Oops, I got that wrong, but the world is not ending. It’s okay." Then I feel like they’re more likely to internalize that message for themselves versus me just telling them that, but presenting another way. Yeah.

I was I was thinking about even when we were kicking off this podcast and and your sound wasn’t working. You were so like zen like, "Oh, yeah. Sound isn’t working.

Like you’re just sort of like trying it out and well I’ve had other guests where it’s just like oh they’re freaking out and it’s like I need to restart my computer and and it’s like it’s interesting because we we kind of assume that this generation is you know Gen Z gen alpha are you know tech natives but what I I heard one anecdote from a teacher. I’m curious what if if you’ve seen something similar where you know when we were growing up with computers it often was just broken like we were constantly troubleshooting. I remember like the first time I got an iPod and I spent like eight hours you know like late into the night my with my dad trying to figure out how to get the it was like firewire to work and it just didn’t work and we had to like do all this stuff.

And now technology just works like most of the time it just works. So you just turn on the computer or you go into Chrome and one teacher was describing if a student can’t figure out how to like log in to Chrome for to to like their Google suite. They just like don’t know what to do.

It’s like the the practice of troubleshooting. Like do you do you see that and do you find that you actually have to because you talk about modeling sort of this like best practice of like just troubleshooting in a in a way that’s you know that’s also sort of a mental state like Yeah. Does does that does that story have you seen something similar to that?

Like our kids like less apt for for troubleshooting than than people might expect? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, even with my own kids and so like my son in particular, you know, he he will ask me questions and I’m trying to get better because I think sometimes as adults like we just kind of and as teachers we just kind of want to like give the answers so we can keep going.

And I’m trying to like force myself to slow down a little bit and like give them that opportunity. So like you know he’ll he’ll ask me a question and I’m like well what do you think? How do you think you should do it or what setting do you think it should be?

And then he just goes and does it. And so like I actually never help him but it’s something just in him to ask the question every time. And so the same thing with the students like trying to get them to again go to each other that three before me.

So go to each other because then they’re they’re having an opportunity to practice that with each other before they come to me and then if they come to me it’s like okay well you know what can we try? But yeah they are they are very like when something doesn’t work it’s like oh no and I think that part of that though when you think about it has to do with the model of education. There’s been so much focus on getting to the right answer, right?

Testing is all about getting the right answer and we’ve lost there’s there’s not as much focus on the process of of of getting there, the journey. And so one of the ways that I model that in my classroom is so yes they have projects and they have rubrics for how their projects are graded. But once they submit a project, I give them feedback and I I give it back to them and then they can go take that feedback and apply and they can edit their projects and resubmit because I want to reward them for the journey, right?

Because my goal is for them to to learn, right? It’s not about like just a number. And so it’s interesting because you have the students that I mean, man, if they lost one point, they are going back in there and they are making that adjustment, but I’m always surprised at how many students, no, I’m fine with that grade.

Particularly like we do like digital citizenship, like our we have like wrapups to the lesson, but they can go in and edit their answers and so many kids are like, "Nope, I’m good with that grade." You know, because it’s like that’s all that they’re focused on is just the grade. And like, well, the grade is acceptable. Not the the learning of, well, wow, why did I miss that question?

Let me go back in. So, I always love the students that are like, no, it marked it as wrong, but I know I know this is the right answer. And I’m like, well, maybe it is, and let’s look at it.

And then I’m like, okay, well, this is saying this, and then they’re like, oh, that’s not the right. And I love that. I love that because that’s showing me that they care about the journey.

They care about the actual knowledge versus just the grade. And I feel like that’s what education should be, but it’s it’s so hard and it’s so it can it feels so overwhelming sometimes when we think about having to make changes on a systemic level and like overhaul everything. So I that’s the that’s probably the answer that I don’t have is like how do we do that?

I mean but like in the workplace very rarely do you just get one shot. I mean, everything is like, "Oh, let me send you a draft." And then your boss gives you some feedback and you’re like, "Your client gives you feedback or your customer gives you feedback and then you’re sort of iterating on it." Yeah. In fact, I think the only time I’ve really ever taken a test was like maybe in like an application like maybe sometimes there’s like a there’s a test during the interview process, but you don’t really get tested at work.

You almost always are iterating. Yeah. But like type A personality struggle with that.

And I’m like a a type a, you know, in remission. But it’s, you know, you want to get everything right the the first time. And I think it’s so funny that like you said like, "Oh, you were so zen." Cuz like inside I’m like, "Oh my gosh." Like, you know what’s happening?

I actually got a tattoo and it says Zen on it because I’m like reminding myself to that I need to stay in that place. But yeah, for type A people and you know I worked in in corporate you know before I moved into education and I just felt like it was such a different model and so even once getting into education and once I started presenting like you know the best advice somebody ever told me was that a presentation is just a conversation right because I wanted to come I wanted to stand in front of the room I wanted to have a mastery over everything I didn’t want to make any mistakes stumble over any words and just be perfect and just realizing like one that’s not relatable to a lot of people because then they feel like they can’t do what you do right. It’s not authentic and it’s not sustainable and it put a lot of stress on myself.

And so when yeah when she told me that like presenting is just a conversation like it I don’t know why it was so simple but it just changed everything for me. And so now like I’m so much more relaxed and you know like when I’m presenting like I just enjoy myself and enjoy engaging with people. And so I think yeah it’s just I don’t know it’s just a big difference in mindset a shift in mindset.

Yeah. It’s funny because I never actually thought of it like that but people ask like oh you seem you always seem so relaxed. They ask, "Oh, are you nervous before a talk?" And I usually am not, but it’s I I kind of have a flaw, which is I’m really bad at memorizing like a talk track.

In fact, I was doing recording like the intro to our YouTube channel and I probably sent like 30 minutes of just like making mistakes. Oh, let me try that again. And I just like I’m really bad at memorizing and like rehearsing and sort of like like I’d be a horrible actor.

I’d probably be very good at improv, but I’d be a really bad actor. So my secret is yeah, I kind of just go and riff when I present and so it feels like I’m just having a conversation with the crowd. I never like sort of made that connection of like that’s kind of why I had this conversational style.

And I think people actually I think people gravitate to that. I think there’s like an authenticity that comes with not being perfect. Not necessarily getting every single point.

I want to I want to transition into this this question that I’ve been obsessed with. I’m sure you have been, if not obsessed with it, you have to be thinking about it. So how long have you been teaching computer science?

So I think this is my seventh year. I’m entering into my seventh year. Okay.

So it’s 2025. So it’s like 2018 roughly. 2018 This is like you know computer science was at a at a period like in a total heyday like people were making crazy amounts of money like all the best jobs all the companies that were growing the fastest Google Microsoft Facebook etc. These are all places where, you know, to really advance, you had to have computer science and and I think computer science had this sort of this reputation as sort of like a vocational track.

Where it’s like, oh, go and major in CS, get on the CS pathway, and then you’ll get one of these amazing jobs. And and today there’s just, I think, a lot of uncertainties. You’re seeing, you know, wildly high unemployment rates among college grads with CS degrees.

And then there’s lots of companies that and I don’t know if this they’re being, you know, there’s a lot of hype, so it’s hard to really sort of read through the not going to call misinformation, but read through like the the the the strategy that these companies might be having. But they’re laying off like lots of people. They’re laying off engineers, and they’re saying, "Oh, well, we’re using AI." and so I’ve I’ve seen like people that are saying, "Oh, well, kids don’t need to learn computer science anymore.

AI is just going to do all the coding." Before I react to that, because I I I want to sort of give you my take, but but maybe I’m sure this has come up with you, like, how do you respond to a parent or a student who’s like, "Well, Microsoft just laid off, you know, few thousand engineers. Like, why do I do I really need to be learning CS if the AI is going to be doing it for me?" Yeah. I think I always start with again those skills right so computer science is the classroom it’s the vehicle through which I’m teaching these skills and these thought process processes and so I I mean I think it’s important just for for that standpoint right and like just like you were too you were using you know the whole math thing like we have calculators we have smartphones but like we still need to we still need to to know math and so you know And I think from a creative standpoint, I I think it’s important for students to know how to create in this manner.

I you know, yes, AI is replacing a lot of things. But I I still push that I like to use AI as a tool and and not an end all beall. And then I think too that there you know we we know that there are issues with AI sometimes and hallucinations and some of the things.

So students still need the skill set of being able to think critically about the information that is being generated by AI to actually think okay does this make sense in the context of you know how I’m using it. So I I’m not quite there yet where I’m just like oh yeah let’s just pass everything over. I think that you know and maybe there’s a point where it does get to to that level but right now I think that there is definitely still a value in com in students knowing how to how to do this.

And again just getting them from just being users and consumers to actually understanding you know even on a basic level like what is happening when I do this? Why do I need to you know I told you the way interruption if before you leave today you could stop by the office and make sure your contact information is updated. I would appreciate it.

Thank you so much life of a teacher. Amazing. Yeah keeping that.

Gosh. But getting them to understand, you know, okay, so when I have my Netflix shows and they’re on autoplay, like, okay, why is that happening? But then also, should that be happening?

Like, so we have conversations about how companies literally have people who, you know, psychologists that know about addictive design and how to keep users on their devices longer. Like so again I I feel again I’m trying to cover so much but I just I want my students to understand that it’s not just yeah like it can generate code but you there’s so much more that you need to think about when we think about coding and AI and all of that and so I still think that there’s value in the education. Yeah, I mean I I mean 100% right.

It’s like the like even like one example that you had shared earlier where you were sort of challenging students to think about you know what is something that you’re passionate about like how could AI or computer science help you like solve a problem makeup you know finding the right you know shade of makeup you know you’re building the muscles for entrepreneurship and you know that’s what we keep hearing from CEOs is like we need kids who you need we need workers who are entrepreneurial and like proactive and problem solvers and creative thinkers and I really can’t think of any other subject where there is like that much exposure to those skills. You can build those skills in math or in English or in science but you know they’re slivers of the day whereas computer science almost as a voca almost as a project is like you know you’re you’re basically constantly flexing those durable skills the computational thinking skills. So that that’s been that’s been my sort of evolution is paradoxically I think computer science is actually more important than ever before.

Mhm. Because if AI is going to be doing all this stuff, the question is well it’s not that AI is just going to be writing code, it’s also going to be writing papers, writing emails, writing memos, doing, you know, going through spreadsheets. So what are companies going to be looking for if we’re just thinking about just the jobs like the career aspect?

But then you described something else which is like being able to like having agency in the world around you. Not just knowing that Netflix is is using AI to recommend shows, but also like should you just be watching the shows that Netflix is recommending? Such a powerful or also like should you just be on TikTok, right?

Like why are you seeing some of these crazy reels or some of these crazy Tik Toks? Yeah, it gives you a different level of understanding when you understand how it’s working on the back end, right? Even if it’s on a basic level like it just makes you you know it’s like yeah or even like you know when when you’re saying something and then like it shows up on your you know you look something up on the internet and then it shows up as an ad on your Facebook like how is that working?

Like so like those are important things to know. You know if if you don’t ever stop to think why is that happening then you you know you’re just like oh what a coincidence but then you’re like oh no there’s data and they’re selling data and you know and there’s all these different components. I I just think it it makes for a more educated society.

And it’s like you know when you when you know better like you should do better. So it should inform the decisions that you’re making. And I also think there’s just a human aspect that AI won’t replicate, right?

The the basic humanity. And so, I mean, I would I would I would hate to live in a in a AI world where that humanity is lost because humanity is such a beautiful thing and that’s not something that would be replicated. I don’t know.

Tell you when I go to restaurants it’s like a sit down restaurant like in a nice restaurant if they like pull out an iPad I’m like I don’t want to just like tap into an iPad even though it’s like by far the most efficient thing you could prepay it’s like but part of why we pay money to go to a restaurant is like the experience of like having like a waiter that comes and sort of like is like you know just interacting with you and there’s probably a lot of example that can I ask about your you you you you ran a smokehouse for a couple years. That keeps coming up. Yeah.

So, I didn’t run a smokehouse. I was a a co-owner of a food truck and catering company. And so we focused Yeah.

It was it was Texas and North Carolina styles of barbecue. And yeah, it was we did that for a few years. It was it was a good time.

Do you I mean do you see any parallels with because actually like I for those who don’t know like running a food truck is is hard. I mean that it is it is it is like running a a restaurant but you’re constantly trying to like find where where do I park it? It’s you have like very limited space.

You have to be every single item that you have is like you have to be super thoughtful. Do you find any parallels with some like the entrepreneurial skills that you were flexing running the food truck and and when you’re sort of like in your classroom teaching CS? Yeah, I mean you have to be you have to be flexible because inevitably you’re going to plan plan and something is going to change or go wrong.

So, I think just having that ability to pivot and not be so rigid to a plan that you can’t make those adjustments in the moment. I also I mean I like to say that, you know, I’m I’m smart enough to figure things out. And so, you know, did I have a background in food track running or bookings or any of that stuff?

No, of course not. Just like I didn’t have a background in computer science. But I trust my ability to learn and and and stay learning new things which I think is important.

So that is I mean that probably the the whole learning the lifelong learning thing that is probably the thing that ties together all of the different things that I do. I just had the opportunity I just wrapped up a three-month project. I was the managing editor of a handbook through CS for everyone a mentoring program that I’d been privileged to be a part of for the last few years.

But we put together a handbook, an 80page handbook and I was a managing editor. Like have I ever been a managing editor or like no of course not. But like you know I was like oh this is a great opportunity.

So again, just that thing about being willing to to stretch myself, push myself beyond what’s comfortable and try and try something new is what what it’s all about. Like and part of that is just coming down to confidence in yourself. I think a lot about what like where does that confidence come from for like you know young growing adults?

I mean can you trace it back to a parent or a teacher in your life that because clearly like you know the one through line in your life is you kind of have this orientation to trying new things you know sort of pushing yourself into uncomfortable spaces. Yeah. Like was there can can you trace it back to any like any influential person in your life?

Well, I will say I mean my parents are definitely very supportive of me, always have been of all, you know, whatever I wanted to do. But I think that my greatest growth in that area is probably more as an adult. I feel like I in a sense I was a bit of a a bit of a late bloomer.

And so I always credit the Amazon Future Engineer Program. They are the ones I I so I won the teacher of the year award through them and then I was part of ended up being part of an ambassador group that they started the inaugural group but it was really people believing in me before I believed in myself. So you know the people that I were were working with they were like hey we’re going to put you on the main well I was going to a conference and they were like you’re going to represent us in the booth.

I said oh no problem I should be able to do that. And then they said, "Oh, by the way, we’re also going to put you on the main stage and you’re going to introduce one of the keynote speakers." And I was like, "Hm, don’t know how I feel about that, but something in me said, well, if you believe that I can do it, I must be able to do it." And so that kind of kept kept happening, right? So, and through other people believing in me and seeing and then me seeing like, okay, they believed in you, you did it.

And then you moved on and you did something else and you did something else that like kind of it was almost like a muscle I was exercising until I got to a point where I could believe in myself and so now you know when new things come I’m like well everything else that I’ve tried you know like I’ve been able to get through so I can get through this too and so with that being said one of the things that I’m a big proponent of and I do presentations on this is the power of mentoring and so because mentoring is so important in in that so I have had amazing ing people in my path that have mentored me, that have supported me and encouraged me along the way. And so that is something that I talk about a lot in the computer science community, especially I do a lot of work with increasing female representation in computer science and STEM. And a large part of that is mentoring.

So people that look like you doing something. So you know they have that saying, if you can see it, you can be it. And then I do a girls who code coding club that I I facilitate here at my school.

And that’s a big part of of what we do with the girls is just talking to them about that and giving them opportunities to see people in the field and talk to them. So that’s so critical. I think that we need community.

You know, that’s how I got involved with CSTA because I didn’t have as a CS teacher, a lot of computer science teachers are in that silo where there’s not others at their school or in their district. So, it’s so important to find that community of educators that you can connect with and you guys can kind of support each other through. So, that’s been a very big part for me is is my community.

And so, I’m always looking for opportunities to expand that community and that’s actually how we connected, Alex, right? So I I I think that all of my journey, all of my accomplishments, all of the amazing opportunities that I’ve had have been because of the community and the networking and the relationships with people, relationships, everything. And I think that is another thing that’s changing in society now.

It’s less about, you know, your resume or your accolades or your grades. It’s more about the connections and the relationships. And so I try to get my my my kids and my students to understand that like you have to be and the problem is though is the reliance on technology is almost in opposition to that because they’re on devices they’re not having those personal interactions and connections as much.

So getting them to understand the value of putting the devices down being face to face and interacting with people. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s a double-edged sword because on the one hand, you know, relationships can be a way of breaking through. You know, you look at somebody’s resume, it’s really hard to get a sense of that person just from like the bullets on the page. Yeah.

You sit down and have a conversation with somebody like like it’s a chance for someone to really get to know you. But it also means that you’re you’re limited to the the networks that that exist. And I think what’s so important with what you’re describing with CSTA is like, you know, breaking out of some of the traditional confines of tech, which is really hard.

I mean, I’m in Silicon I mean, I’m not in Silicon Valley. I’m in San Francisco, but you get to Silicon Valley and it is just it’s non- diverse. It’s a bunch of white guys usually.

I think there’s like a stat that like I think less than 1% of venture capitalists are black and I think it’s even smaller to like for like black women. Wow. And so if you’re a black woman founder, you are almost never pitching somebody with your lived experience.

And and that can be really frustrating and it is really frustrating but I mean the only solution right is like how do we bring more people in to not necessarily VC but like but like technology and like these fields and you know all the programs and curriculum in the world won’t be a substitute for what you’re describing, right? Just people like staying with the learning because they’re around other people that are sort of like giving them that energy, that inspiration. So thank you for what you’re doing.

I mean, I’m curious about what to that I mean, this is maybe a great way for us to even close, you know, cuz at aid we’re obsessed with this. How do we build the how do we make AI readiness something that really sticks with a district? And what we found is just having curriculum, just having, you know, PD by itself is definitely not enough.

You know, people will come to the PD, even if the curriculum is amazing, they’re back into their life. They’re back into their their routine. You have to have community.

And I’m I’m curious like as someone who maybe is, you know, still in the process of trying to figure out how to build your own community in your own school, but someone who’s seen and connected with communities across the country, like what works? Is it like professional learning cohorts? Is it, you know, does do like online communities fill that gap?

Like like what should we be giving BM me advice? This is your chance to tell us what to do. Yeah, this is like the never- ending question.

I was participating in a focus group through the Friday Institute at NC State. And those were the conversations is like how do we how do we do this? I do think that like professional learning communities are are great.

I I feel like so much of my personal growth has come through that area. So I think that that that that really is a great opportunity. I saw you guys have like your your fellowship that you’re offering.

Like I think those are great opportunities too because I don’t know. It’s something about a fellowship that to me makes things a little bit more manageable when I’m like in a group with people like and we’re all trying to like figure out that thing together. I was part of the CSTA impact fellowship the fifth cohort and I mean I learned so much and had so much professional growth through that you know I had opportunity to deliver my flash talk on the main stage at CSTA national conference in Las Vegas which was crazy right but that opportunity came through that so having you know we had mentors in that in that group and again having people to kind of that have maybe reached a certain level reaching back for others to help them get there.

And I think that like those fellowships are a really great way. The professional learning communities are a really great way. And and it’s just I mean it really is just an education thing, right?

The people that get it trying to pull the people that don’t along alongside. But it’s hard because teachers are busy. Yeah.

Educators are busy. It’s the idea of like, you know, three months of summer vacation is such a a misnomer. It’s like it’s not three months.

Well, no, it’s two months. Yeah. We got June and July off and that’s it.

And so, yeah, it’s two months. But, you know, and but see, this is where it gets into this whole conversation about systemic change because part of the issue too is like teacher pay is is horrible. I mean, my state was like in the bottom 10 out of all 50 states, like, you know, so there it’s just it’s it’s so many angles I think that we have to hit it to to make real impact.

And that’s the part sometimes to me that feels a little bit overwhelming. It’s like, yeah, we need teachers to do more things, but when they’re already stretched in, you know, they’re already not getting paid enough. So, like, how do we So, I feel like it has to all kind of work together.

Well, this is the hard thing about doing work in education is it’s there’s it’s so multi-dimensional that is that a school faces and you’re like, you know, I was like talking to somebody at DC public schools, you know, we’re talking about like the future of work and AI and at one point they were just like, you know, we have like almost like a 30 or 40% absenteeism problem. Like until we solve that and then and then why is there 30 or 40% absent a problem? Well, yes, part of it is like learning needs to be more meaningful and engaging and connected to like what’s relevant to students.

A lot of students are like living in like, you know, abject poverty. Yep. Even in the District of Columbia, which is one of like the richest parts of the country, you know, you don’t have to go too far to Anakasia, to be around like people who are literally literally just barely making ends meet, not sure where their next meal is coming from.

And as an educator, like it you you actually literally cannot solve those problems by yourself. And like there’s a broader question of like what’s the role of policy and all this. But I feel like the the only way that the way that I stay grounded is by surrounding myself with folks like you who are like finding their place in the problem set to try to push things forward and like creating and like doing that with joy as opposed to just with like throwing your arms up in the air.

Is there that Oh, yeah. No, feel free to respond to that. Just yeah no and I think yeah because you know even when we we have the conversation about AI like we have to keep in mind you know that there is a population of people that don’t even have internet and so you know or I have students and it’s like well how can I do this if all I have at home is a phone you know and so then we we have this divide between you know we we have AI and we have all this technology but there’s a population of people that are getting left behind and so you know how does that like what does that mean if we’re talking about moving to an AIdriven future but then we have people that don’t have AI access like what does that mean you know and so yeah we there it’s just it’s so many it’s so many things and that’s why I’m like that’s why I feel like I’m all over the place like not in a bad way but just trying to cover as many areas as I can to fill as many gaps as I can because I just don’t want to see like my students get left behind just because of where they come from or because of the color of their skin.

Before we close out, any what do for for folks who are listening who are whether they’re funders, maybe they’re at companies, maybe they’re just really energized by this this challenge of, you know, helping to transform schools and make sure students are ready to thrive in this this new world of AI. Like, what do you need more of? Like, how can they help teachers like you?

Yeah. I mean, I think funding is always a thing, you know, you know, even as a computer science teacher, you know, it’s like, okay, we need, you know, we’re we’re using Chromebooks here. Well, Chromebooks are great from one standpoint, but they’re not great when you’re trying to do some kind of some heavy loading.

So resources is always and I always I I envision this thing, right, because there’s so many organizations doing so many great things, but I really envision this thing of like some kind of collaborative force. And I know it’s like, you know, it’s kind of counterintuitive to our society, like everybody wants to like be number one, but like if some of the big names would like come together like Voltron, you know, and like like a power thing because it’s it’s there’s so many like there’s one group is doing this and one group is doing that. But again, sometimes it gets overwhelming because like what do I want to do?

But like if we could get like a collective gathering of like resources so it’s like this is the powerhouse. This is where you come like I don’t know. I feel like it’s very utopian.

But that’s like my dream. Because like resources are are always time you know if there was a way to even teachers you know like to take off like okay I want to take off to go to this conference. Well, I have to create sub plans and then I can’t leave my computers here because the kids would destroy them if I’m not here.

So, now I have to come up with computer science lessons that don’t utilize computers, you know. So, it’s, you know, giving teachers the opportunity to participate in these types of things. But not making it like an additional burden on them.

And it’s sad because like all summer like I’ve been doing stuff, right? I’ve been presenting at conferences. I’ve been in focus groups because that’s when teachers have time, but that’s also when teachers need a break.

Yeah. Again, the the complete misnomer of the the summer that’s off, right? And yeah, I mean, like I think we shouldn’t be shy about this.

Like there’s there’s one very simple answer to the question of like what do teachers need? And it’s it’s resources. It’s more pay.

I mean, oh my god, my mom works 60 hours a week. My mom works more than me a lot of the time. Like it’s wild because she’s go and on the weekend she’s going to like the talent show and and it’s just wild to me that there’s we’re so like a gasast at the idea of teachers making a you know like a reasonable wage and it and it’s strikes me.

It’s like in Japan, you if you you try and if you you try to become a teacher, and if you if you if you fail at becoming a teacher, it’s like, okay, I guess I’ll do my fall back. I’ll I’ll try to go to medical school. Like, that’s how revered educators are in Japanese society.

And I just don’t understand where we lost the plot in the US where Yeah, it’s the opposite. We’re like, "Oh, I I don’t know what I want to do. I guess I’ll be a teacher." Yeah.

Yeah, there’s a there’s a stupid phrase I’m not even going to repeat about teaching. Well and teachers need to be listened to also like I think that and that comes with professionalism like right like nobody’s going to a doctor saying no no no no I think you know I know how to you know perform this open heart surgery better than you but yet in the field of education everybody always thinks that they know better than the teachers and that’s very frustrating and so I’m very fortunate to be part of organizations that do value and listen to teacher voices But I think that that is not always the norm. So there are always decisions being made about teachers, but teachers have no agency in the process.

And so I think that is also a very big thing that I think would need to change is giving teachers voices and decision making power. Yeah. Especially in this moment where we are making some really big decisions about what education is going to look like, what society is going to look like.

Michelle Shimo Pierce, this was really fun. Are you any other conferences on the You’re back in school now, so you’re probably your conference season’s winding down. Do you have will you be at like South by Southwest maybe or the AI show?

No. My conference season never winds down. There’s always conferences. So I do kind of shift a little bit.

This part of the year I tend to do more local conferences. So I’m doing like some North Carolina ones focused on like STEM. But yeah, there’s always something.

There’s a big shift now for virtual conferences, which that was kind of one of my most recent hurdles because I’m used to presenting, but then having to record presentations to present virtually has been new. But there’s been a big push for that. So, I’ve been I’ve been participating in a few virtual conferences.

So, it never ends for me. Every time I think it’s going to end, something else pops up or somebody tells me they need me to go to something. So, it’s always I never know where it just, you know, but I I again, I love the journey and I love I I’ve I’ve become okay with not knowing, right?

Not knowing what’s next and just waiting for the next opportunity because it it always leads to something fun like this, right? So, yeah. Yeah.

So, I’m very grateful. And and speaking of that, if someone is, you know, planning a conference and looking for an amazing keynote speaker or presenter, I what’s the best way for them to contact you? Yeah.

Oh, so actually I’m I’m I’m launching my business and my website is almost done. I guess maybe by the time this is released that’ll be done. Maybe by the time this is released it’ll be done so we can Yeah.

So, it’s going to be I’ll just go ahead and put it out there. Right. It’s going to be So, it’s going to be my initials, MSP Collective.

So, you’ll be able to to search me up, but you can also find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok. Michelle Shimo Pierce. It’s it’s across the board.

I’ll probably be transitioning things to MSP Collective as we get it rolling. But yeah, you can you can find me. LinkedIn is great.

U post lots of information on there and try to keep it updated about what I’m doing. Yeah, send her a DM. Michelle is really fun.

I’ll I’ll let you get back to prepping. Wait, when did the kids come to school? On Monday.

Week. Yes. I’ll leave you to your Friday.

Hopefully, you’re able to get out of the building a little early. And yeah, thanks again for joining. This was super fun.

Thanks, Alex.