Shawna Young: Investing in overlooked founders

Hey everybody, I’m Alex Kotran. I’m the CEO and co-founder of aiEDU. I’m here with Shauna Young, the CEO of Camelback Ventures.

And Shauna is actually someone who has done a lot more than just lead Camelback Ventures. She’s actually been championing how do we sort of build capacity and sort of identify and nurture talent diverse and broad talent from sort of all the corners of the country that are not always you know front and center when we think about investing in innovation. So I’m Sean, I’m really excited to sort of there’s a lot that we can cover before we start nerding out about I mean we were just talking about sort of the potential for AI and this sort of idea of you didn’t say user- centered design but almost like this like how do we how do we empower and nurture the builders and builders who aren’t necessarily the traditional folks that are currently creating a lot of the tools.

But before we get there, I mean can you just give us a little bit of your your story? I mean you’re how long have you been at Camelback? And maybe if you could sort of walk us along your journey to leading, you know, one of the most prestigious organizations right now that’s sort of doing really preede early stage investments in in founders and people with big ideas for social innovation.

Thank you, Alex. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think my journey starts with where I grew up in Favville, North Carolina.

So growing up in the south, growing up in a military town, it it was interesting, right? Because everyone at my school, my public high school, all dreamed to go to college and many of us did. Regardless of your socioeconomic background, we all really felt like we had the same lived experience.

And so when I went to Howard Major University in DC majoring in chemistry, it was the first time I really really saw how broad the span of black excellence really is. And for me, what it immediately said in my brain is if there’s this much depth and amazingness, I’ll make up a word today, around the black community, it has to be in all communities. That was my first thought.

Like, oh my gosh, there’s incredible people around the world, but they all don’t have the same opportunities. And it took me back to when I was in elementary school and middle school. And I just literally remember one of my teachers tapped me on the shoulder like, "Hey, Shauna, you ask a lot of questions," which I do.

Tons of questions. You’re very inquisitive. There’s this program called Duke Tip, and it’s for gifted and talented students.

You should, you know, you should apply for it or you should take this above level test, the SAT in seventh grade, and you should be in these programs now and courses now. So luckily for me, I was identified by a teacher, right? And it I reminded me of the importance of not just education, but someone who sees young people for who they truly are.

So after my journey at at Howard and since 8 years old, I thought I wanted to be a teacher, I mean a doctor. And I literally realized in Howard University, I didn’t want to be in the hospital every day. Like I don’t want to be a doctor.

I don’t know where that came from. And I think it really came from this like societal vision of who is successful in the world. And even though my mom was a teacher, I just didn’t assign that to being successful.

So once I started out from some from Howard, decided not to go into being a doctor, went to GE for one year, corporate America in 1998 97 was not me either. So then I literally just had to accept that I wanted to be a teacher. And so I quit my job at GE and I went back.

My parents I got the two parent phone call. Are you really, really, really sure about this? And it was the best decision I ever made.

When I walked in the classroom, even though I didn’t know exactly how to be a teacher cuz I was a lateral entry, I didn’t take any education courses. I just went in the to the classroom with a big hope and dream and it was a journey. But I knew it was where I was supposed to be.

And so after one year teaching at Sun Valley High School outside of in Monroe, North Carolina, outside of Charlotte, I went to Chapel Hill and I went back to school, did student teaching, and learned how to be a teacher and went from Sun Valley High School, which was a suburban high school. I may have had five or 10 black students to Hillside High School in Durham, North Carolina, where was the inverse, like 95% of my student body was black. I had amazing amazing teaching colleagues at both places but different demographics of students.

And I remember immediately the characterization of the two schools being very different just based on test scores. And so for me again because my knowledge was everybody is spectacular. Everyone could like you know do their best if they’re given opportunities.

The first thing I thought about is these test scores do not represent my students. And so it was really important for me to provide learning opportunities for them that would illuminate their brilliance and change the perception and their test scores honestly because it was around high standards of expectations, authentic experiences outside the classroom. Like we were gardening, you know, at our high school, we were going on ski trips for physics students, you know, we were going to museums.

I was like, "Let’s go." And for many of my students, it’s the first time they’d ever done any of those things. And so, and we were doing it as a department like Shauna say, "No, it’s like, let’s all do this as a science department, science team, because I knew it would change like how our students learn." And I remember that I was so nervous about this high stakes testing. I didn’t go through it when I went to public school, but I was so nervous about it.

I was like, I have to teach my young people how to learn and answer questions and this is inquiry based learning. Back everything, you know, every season is a new new name. But once I shifted to that, it just changed my confidence.

It changed how my students got excited about coming in the classroom. We also had deep relationship with the each other. And so after that, I I moved to I became a mom and moved to Massachusetts and found this whole new world of educational nonprofits that I didn’t really see in North Carolina at the time.

So I worked at EDC, Education Development Center, developing online curriculum for AP courses, training for teachers. And this was like 2005, 2006, and I’d already been an early adopter as a AP science teacher, teaching kids across chemistry. Was it AP Chem?

It was AP so I did AP I did I did AP physics and then I did I had another AP chemistry teacher and then I did AP environmental science, but I developed this AP environmental science class for students across North Carolina. And I was just somewhat of like you know early in the state of doing that. And so went to EDC, loved it, but also felt like there was more I wanted to do.

So I found my way from there to the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard running educational programs for young people and then literally got the you know another another job of my dreams which was being executive director of the office of engineer outreach programs at MIT. I did it for eight years. Is now the mice’s office.

And I just remember clearly feeling like I was on the other side of what the classroom like when I was in the classroom, I was telling my young people, if you’re getting into NC State and into UNCC and do like, what about MIT? What about here? And they it’s like I had three heads.

But at MIT, I’m now like I’m giving out those golden tickets to kids around the country and helping them see that they could literally sit in these seats like everyone else. They already have it within them. And so I think for me that was a pivotal time in my career when I understood the impact of access.

Like that that was a gamecher for me. And so I did my best to grow the office to raise the money to make sure that we could serve even more students. But every year we got 3 to 4,000 students from phenomenal young people and we were serving 250 to 300.

We grew to 500. Still a small number. And so I was able to get my MBA from Sloan and became executive.

I didn’t realize you had an NBA. Yeah. From MIT Sloan.

And then I I went to Duke University and ran the Duke TIP program and it was the exact opposite. It was for gifted and talented young people. We had a talent search of half a million kids.

We ran programs for 12,000 students. And then I was just like, wait a minute. Wait.

So when we’re designing programs for young people who are coming from marginalized communities or underserved communities, it’s small numbers and scarcity mindset. When I’m here at this other program, which I love, I was identified myself when I was in in middle school, 7th grade, the scale is very different. So how can there be this how can there be a way that for all communities access is more equitable?

And I really worked with our team at Duke Tip to try to open up access to our program so that regardless of your financial background wherever you live, you could be part of this journey. Because if you know a little bit about the story history of gifted and talented programs, they were historically keeping out black and brown young people and stigmatizing them as not ever being able to be gifted. And I just remember the time when I was this executive director of Duke Tip and and folk were more surprised about me being an alum, meaning that I was identified in seventh grade than I was the executive director.

So it’s just like, you know what I mean? Like when you think about that, it’s like what? So we still have a ways to go and how we identify talent, how we believe folk can have innovative ideas.

And so when I find myself now after being at Scratch Foundation as one of the early executive directors and then CEO of Ada Developers Academy, now at Camelback Ventures, I see myself like even further down the talent development track where I literally in some cases we have given seed funding to people that were in the mice program with me back at MIT, right? So like just thinking about how a difference it makes to invest in people with big ideas. I mean it’s so cool that you’ve gone through almost the full the entire pipeline like you you’ve you’ve spent time at each juncture.

I want to talk about where you’ve landed at Camelback. But just an observation you like I did not get into the gifted program. Parents were both immigrants.

Mom was tenacious. She was an educator. She also, by the way, I got that same phone call when she found out that I wasn’t going to law school.

And she’s like, "What are you what is this AI thing? Like, what why don’t you just go to go to law?" And she’s still actually to this day, well, are you sure you don’t want to get maybe just a masters? And you like she’s like, "Okay, maybe not a PhD, but just go get a masters." I was like, "A masters and what, mom?" And she’s like, "It doesn’t matter.

But you know, I like she got me in and I had imposter syndrome, but I being surrounded by other students who were high achievers and having a teacher that sort of just was the base assumption was you’re in gifted, you’re going to be able to do this. You know, that changed my trajectory. And there’s it’s interesting because in Silicon Valley like if you if you when if you listen to interviews from a lot of the super successful companies and founders very often they’ll brag about how they got bad grades.

You know, there’s like there’s this almost trend of folks who were given opportunities or almost despite their grades were able to get on those pathways and you know, everybody has their own story and usually, you know, somebody that believed in them. But you know I think so much of this is you know just giving students putting them in on that track and just telling them that like someone believes in them is like like I’ve witnessed this for myself like that was you know absolutely changed my life and and I worry about sort of this these baseline assumptions and and the the hyperfocus on test scores as you know and I understand the challenge right because like you know old child indicators that’s tough to do at scale but it so you basically identified well I’m going to actually just go to the very front lines of this and and now you’re at Camelback and you know talking again about Silicon Valley I mean one of the conversations you and I had it was a couple days ago I guess in time was you know this this phenomena where you you know in Silicon Valley you look around at pitch competitions And it’s like always the usual suspects. It’s like, you know, teams from Harvard, it’s like the, you know, and they have their pipeline.

The VCs have their pipeline. They have their networks. And you talk to folks who have raised, you know, really significant dollars or been successful, and they’ll tell you, well, you know, there really isn’t a cheat code to how you pitch.

It’s it’s who you know. You know, you have to like sort of get ushered into, you know, this like secret club. And all the folks who basically are are are at the doors of that club are hanging out in in Palo Alto in Menllo Park.

And they’re definitely not in Durham. No. so so Camelback is basically you’re you’re not like series A, series B. You’re you’re actually very often is it are folks coming in with is it organizations that are that are are you investing in organizations or like what where in the life cycle of like an idea for social impact are you coming in?

Yeah, good question. Thank you for asking, Alex. Really both, right?

So, we are identifying an entrepreneur who has a company, who has an idea. It could be for-profit, nonprofit education, literally new schools. We invest in new schools, out of schooltime programs, workforce development, STEM programs, but also we invest in fintech, health tech, and edtech.

And so, we give what is often called a friends and family round. So, $40,000 in a grant if you’re a nonprofit. In founder friendly safe if you’re a for-profit and early stage.

So typically because we’ve been now we’re in our 10th year 10 year anniversary and I started there 11 months ago as CEO. So our our founder Aaron Walker started Camelback 10 years ago. He now has become launched his own f fund Ruthless for good which he’s raised $20 million that he’s a venture fund that he is now deploying.

And so we are early stage now we like to see an MVP often like you you have the it’s not just back of the envelope you have an idea maybe you’ve tested it and then we can help you get to that next stage u but we receive about 600 applications a year we have two cycles through those like three 300 or so each cycle and then we’ll pick 15 a cycle so still that’s growth like literally this year we’ve gone up to 30 entrepreneurs we’ll this year out of 600. So still a small number. And so we also think about how can we be more influential in the ecosystem.

In particular, we care about entrepreneurs who are solving problems in their own communities and often they don’t have the financial resources to do that. So, we’re gathering philanthropic dollars from large institutions that many people know that support our work and then give that out through the grants or through a safe and then also do a four-month accelerator with them. But we recognize that we don’t we want to reach more than 30 people.

So now we’re really looking at how can we look at our content, how can we have gatherings like Guardian Summit that we have every year. We hope you’ll come in New Orleans. And we’re based out of New Orleans intentionally.

So I grew up in Durham in in Favville, North Carolina and lived in Durham. Camelback is based out of New Orleans with intention. We wanted to bring L eyes to the south where we have more young people of color, where we have more diverse communities and also ensuring that we’re we’re giving those dollars to communities that have been underfunded.

I think it’s so powerful that you’re doing it in a place like New Orleans. Just I think the importance of bringing this conversation about innovation and putting it proximate to people so that they’re not because I think you know I’m from Ohio and we’re a lot we do a lot of work in Ohio and and folks are you know they breathe a sigh of relief when you know I will often open up a meeting and say you know our goal is not to get your kids to move out to California and that’s kind of the narrative when I was in school it was like if you’re really successful you’ll go work at Google you you’ll go to San Francisco or you’ll go to New York or or Austin. And you know, those those areas have benefited from this massive influx of talent from all over the country.

And that’s one of the weird things as you you talk to different folks in the in the VC space and the, you know, founders, a lot of University of Michigan alums, a lot of, you know, folks from the Midwest, but they’ve gone out and so so when is the event? It’s in New Orleans. This year, this year, New Orleans, June 11th and 12th.

And we really, it’s a curated space. We hope to have 250 to 300 entrepreneurs, investors, philanthropy partners coming together and really talking about what’s top of mind when it comes to investments, when it comes to AI, when it comes to technology and education. And I think it’s timely right now, right?

There’s a lot going on. But we also know when we have a lot of change, I feel like that’s when innovation happens. So, we’re really thinking as an organization, not just how we pull back, but how do we kind of lean in and ensure that we’re supporting our entrepreneurs more right now more now than ever.

And so, brain drain is what they talk about in terms of New Orleans that we’ve have amazing people who have lots of talent and they often leave. So, how can they we have them stay within the New Orleans ecosystem? However, as an organization, we seed funding across the country.

So, we’re looking at, you know, does not matter location where you’re from. A lot of our investments are in the south because that’s where a lot of people who are where they apply to from our for our program, but we invest across the country, including California. Any So, I mean, what are some of the success stories?

It doesn’t have to be the current cohort, but just sort of like if you think back to the Camelback Ventures. Yeah. Like what are what I mean $40,000 is you know for a founder it it could probably feels like a lot of money but in the context of you know the venture capital space it’s you know tiny and yet you know I think people are often surprised when they see what Camelback has been able to cultivate but yeah why don’t you just talk through like sort of cut it up but yeah why don’t you talk through like some of your favorites yeah and I think I’ll pull back a little bit too and say like my personal understanding of being a social entrepreneur like that’s I was executive director CEO know and along my journey in the last 5 years I’ve become a social entrepreneur too.

So it’s helped me really understand the importance of having financial resources to start the thing you want to do right and like trying to cobble together your own friends and family round is not easy at all. And so we have you know ventures from our first class started in 2015 and they have you know become I mean you Eubanks with Braven has become a $27 million nonprofit that’s serving college students the ones that may not being in the schools we’re used to like the top names but really giving them access to career development as a career accelerator. We have Demola who’s out of Atlanta who’s building Plural as a a new venture that’s venturebacked has been out to several rounds focusing on how you use AI to help companies make decisions around policy by having that data.

And then we have several from America on Tech to Knowledge House both out of New York that are focused on really STEM development talent development even for workforce. And so we’ve invested inund and over like 180 founders in our 10 years and they have incredible ideas and I’ll tell you what I get most excited about is not just the ventures they’re building but the the confidence they have in being able to solve any problem. Literally in my first six months, I was still like, you know, getting to know our founders and getting to know the landscape.

And I just remember talking to a couple of our founders in in DC and they were just rattling off like now how many companies they started or how many ventures they started and just the positive energy of confidence and being able to solve whatever new problem they want to seek. And that’s what I was so excited about for like Camelback has done because I want to see that in every type of community, right? Like that there isn’t this if you happen to have the financial resources and the social capital that’s historical from your upbringing, which is fine, right?

That you can solve problems, but even if you don’t have that, if you’re a little black girl from Fable, North Carolina, you walk into a room and you’re like, I can solve that, right? And I think that Camelback does that for for communities that typically don’t have the access. And so we’ve got, you know, I called out a few, but we’ve got 180 and people who know me well.

I’m not a favorite person. So I would encourage everyone to please come check out our fellows on our website. We have them all there.

They literally are around the country and they’re they’re they’re solving incredible things. And I don’t want to always call them like what problem are you solving for? Because innovation is not always a problem.

Sometimes it’s like a new idea to make things very different, right? So, I like to frame it that way. And so, if someone’s an investor, what is the best place for them to sort of just like get access to your portfolio?

Obviously, your website is is the event in in New Orleans? Yes. We love to have people to come see us.

You have alums come as well. Yeah. So, we’re actually our goal is to have at least like 40% founders including our alum.

We have people who’ve applied to sell Camelback, you know, it’s like they’re still part of our family. Entrepreneurs who kind of whis miss missed the wave of friends and family for us like I’m part of Camelback too. They’re all there.

It’s very much cultural rich like you start with the second line those who know what that is. So good music, good food and then we really and trying to ensure that we have investors there philanthropic as well as investors who are ventureback investors and partners. And what’s exciting about it this year is that Horizons from Jazz of the Future is happening the same week.

So, we’re literally partnering them. Just got off a call with them right before I came to see you around how we can really curate this this week of innovation for New Orleans and workforce development. Yeah, it’s funny because when you know my my husband works in venture capital and he will often say something that I hear from funders in the education space which is wow it’s just so hard to find organizations to give money to and it’s just bizarre and it’s a I I think people don’t fully process like there is there is a sort of like demand problem on both sides of the or supply problem rather on both sides of the equation and there’s just so much power and just like sort because you’re not just sort of like anybody with an idea is now a Camelback fell.

Like you’re doing a lot of vetting and you’re doing the due diligence and so folks you know if you are a funer and you’re you’re wondering like how do I sort of invest in social impact and how do I support diverse founders from all over the country I mean there’s you know sounds like New Orleans is probably the place let’s go let’s come to New Orleans and I think in particular in the ecosystem like we’ve got phenomenal partners across the map really it’s like where is Camelback’s space in the ecosystem and we are We’re not at the earliest stage. We have some partners like Moonshot or 4.0 that give that like 5,000 or something like that in support to get your idea to ideation from ideation off the page to a pilot. And then we sit in the space with Fast Forward and others where we’re like, okay, we have a bit more capital we can provide and support you in your venture.

And hopefully help them move along. If you’re in the nonprofit space, like you’re moving on to new profit or new schools or a venture firm that wants to back your idea. Echoing Green is one sort of partnering with us along the journey.

They have a different sort of, you know, their model is different, but we’re all in this space and there’s still room for more. And I would say I was on a panel when I was in San Francisco last week around with venture. And I I love one of my panelists who shared like venture is if you want rocket fuel.

If you’re not looking for rocket fuel for your idea, don’t go after venture because that is literally what it is for, right? And so also the reason why we invest in nonprofits and forprofits is because we’re early enough that the founder may not really know how they want to structure their venture and we often will help them make decisions around does it make sense for them to be venturebacked or not. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I love because that is sometimes just a foregone conclusion that well I have to be venturebacked because that’s what success looks like is just raising a ton of money. And then sometimes it’s like the dog that catches the car. It’s like you raise all this money and now you have investors with like very particular ideas about what they want your you know outcomes to be and now you have to sort of deliver usually very aggressive growth targets.

It is I think it’s really hard in the education space. The you know growth at the scale that venture expects requires a level of aggressiveness that doesn’t necessarily do you doesn’t do justice to what is often required in education which is you know spending a lot of time you know ensuring that there is actually impact and outcomes and so but yeah some ideas our ideas one was an example of that where you know we just decided it was and I probably you know it’s too bad that we didn’t you know it would have been I I I my life would probably be very different if I had an AI startup back in 2019 when we had this idea. But I’m so glad that we decided to do the the nonprofit route because it has allowed us to move slowly when we need to move slowly.

But but yeah, that first check is really tough. I wanted to add to that. Yeah, absolutely.

So we are often people’s first check, first check ever. And so that’s that’s significant and that is what our founders talk about. So, it’s not just the money, it’s the belief in the idea.

And that’s what they don’t get a lot of times. And sometimes you need someone that is going to tell you like actually that idea isn’t isn’t good enough or here’s what here’s the weak the weak points and sort of like and my guess is that some of the folks that you give money to, it’s not always their first time throwing their hat in the ring. I mean, that’s a good question.

Now, we do have people who apply and apply and apply. But I’m I don’t know if we’re a lot of repeat entrepreneurs as much as entrepreneurs who are still trying to get their footing under them. So, we give feedback to everyone who applies if they like it.

We just want to make sure they get the feedback and we’re always excited about founders who will take that feedback and and actually move on certain suggestions and so they will often come back and then become a fellow. Oh, that’s interesting. So, so you you’re giving them feedback, they go work on it, tinker some more, come back with revised, enhanced something a little bit more meat on the bones.

Yep. Absolutely. And so they’ll do that and we have applications twice a year.

So I actually like that too because I think often you feel like, oh my gosh, I need to wait another year. And so when I going back to your point around venture venture capitalist really saying like is the demand there? How do I find the next deal or source the next deal?

Having the twice a year cycle I think really helps us with that. Like really get for some people they might literally be six months away or three months away. It’s just the timing is a bit off.

And so now, especially with AI and folks using AI in their ventures, it’s changing what is your special sauce. Like what is the thing that makes you a unicorn if that’s what you need to be or unique and AI can give lots of folk a stronger foundation of in the past it was your expertise. Look, I am the best science teacher ever.

You can’t touch me when it comes to this content. Well, with AI and content, you can get a lot of that. So now it’s like well how much of an executor am I in my STEM after school program that I’m developing or workforce development program I’m developing and what I what I like about that and it doesn’t mean expertise doesn’t mean anything but I’m saying that it’s not like maybe the thing you can hang your hat on only you have to also be an operator.

What I love about that is that that’s teachable. Mhm. So now what we can do in Camelback is really hone in on how we’re helping and this is what we do in our fellowship, how we’re helping founders shift their mindset and skill set from founder to CEO.

Yeah. So I mean you you mentioned AI and the you know pushing people to think of themselves as operators. This is as good of a segue as ever.

I mean, I want to hear your thoughts more broadly about artificial intelligence, but I just can’t get out of my head, you know, when I talk to folks who are at the front lines of like developing the tech, what I keep hearing is, you know, it’s the the limitations now are actually less and less what the AI is capable of and more about, you know, people actually figuring out how to apply and deploy the tools for very specific problems. And you know, it’s interesting because that skill set is very often not an AI technical skill set. It’s, you know, to your point about people who understand the problems they’re trying to solve, people who are coming from communities, who who are who are, you know, situated in the communities for whom they’re trying to to support.

I mean that feels kind of like the missing link in terms of you know what and and I guess the question for you is how have you let me let me let me ask two questions and I’ll start with you know how are you seeing founders using AI right now? Is it something that are are are people coming to you with ideas that’s like AI for blank or is it more about I have this big idea, I’m going to use AI to help me get to that MVP or to help me do some of the stuff that might have otherwise been really tough for me to do just by myself? Yeah, that’s a good question.

I think we are shifting not even just what we’re seeing but we’re funding is we want it to be more unique than like it’s an AI platform, right? So what specific program are you problem are you trying to solve for using AI? What white space are you going into in terms of the use of AI and then also for some problems you don’t need AI right so it’s not that we’re saying all of our ventures must be AI enabled but that’s what we’re looking as enablement more than trying to we were talking about this before build tools that are going to replace humans because most of our funding goes to education how can your tool you’re building actually help teachers educators students in learning and also how are they aligned time with diverse communities, right?

So like they’re going to serve communities that we want to see served is is the anchor in the work. And so we’re seeing I would say across the board different examples of that. And then our investments are more specific.

So so that’s that’s what I that’s how I would answer it that we don’t we’ve invested about 10 entrepreneurs so far. We’ll probably do a lot more. We may even stand up some 10 AI entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs who are in some way using AI in some way using AI and some of them are shifting is like me being able to rally them off is hard because we’ve got 180 but we also are going back and looking at like how are people actually doing using it to build their businesses and some of them have shifted since we first founded them right so it may not have even been AI venture and now they’re going back and saying you know what to get to the solution for this problem the better way to do that is the use of AI I’ll tell you what I’m also hearing from other funders though is not again just funding what’s already been there really being very specific around what’s uniquely what’s unique in your in your idea and your proposition in terms of the use of AI.

And then again for us it’s how is that going to help communities that have been traditionally left out or underfunded. Yeah, there’s a there’s an there’s a tension or a balance. You know there are definitely funders out there who are interested in giving money to let’s say an AI entrepreneur an AI founder an AI company but I think especially you know it’s been long enough that the bar is quite high if you’re if you’re an AI company like you really are going to have to show something compelling and I think people are seeing that a lot of these tools are becoming commoditized like differentiation defensibility quite hard but you know I I almost wonder if if I was starting this all over again and I Let’s say I was pitching Camel back.

I feel like I would not have an AI idea. I would say here’s my idea. I would tell you how I’m going to use AI to get there.

So, I’m going to check that box for you, but I’m going to actually lower the bar for myself and not try to compete with all these other AI companies because I think you know, most of the AI startups that I’ve seen really haven’t been able to answer the question of like you know, what actually is coming next. It’s more just you’re you’re almost investing in sort of like the vibe of AI is going to blow blow everything up. This is like on a rocket ship and so you know whatever like let’s just you know let’s just get on the rocket ship together and we’ll sort of see where this pans out.

But if you can answer the question with a little bit more fidelity I think there’s a lot of I think funders will be like ready to actually you know get beyond the the ambiguity that’s right now I think there’s a lot of ambiguity around AI that you know funders are starting to identify as like well I don’t know just AI by itself is not going to be the the end all. I agree with you and I think for our our model that’s why we also really invest in the entrepreneur. So, it’s a fellowship, right?

And so, and really looking at who is creative and how they’re thinking about, building their their venture, solving the problems they want to solve, and now really how would they use different types of tools to solve it, which could include AI. Like, if you look at our website, there’s not like AI everywhere actually. And our team is pretty adamant.

I’m like, we need to put up there more. They’re like, no, Sean. Like, I’m like, yes, no. And I get it because it’s like it’s it’s a way to an end, right?

And so we have been investing in AI since 2018 at least when and some of our vendors who we invest in early we started in 2015 might be using it even now every year we go out to our alumni and ask them questions about things like that and really try to understand how they’re using new technologies to solve problems. So we really believe and and most investors do, it’s like the person you’re investing in, right? If they because hopefully the venture that you invested in goes well, but more than anything, they’re going to learn from it and they’re going to do the next thing too.

So, we have we have not made it that AI is end all beall. And in particular, I think we’re attuned to how is it how are there biases and models that are impacting our communities? And hopefully if we have more people from diverse communities who can build these types of ventures that they can be more equitable to our own communities.

Yeah. The there’s there’s a lot of opportunity but also I think danger and peril in the scale that education offers. I mean if you get into some of these big systems you reach you know overnight hundreds of thousands of students, tens of thousands of teachers.

So the bar is quite high. The multiples aren’t very high. But the bar is quite high for a tool.

And so when we think about something like algorithmic bias, it’s easier to deploy in a customer service tool that’s you know just reaching customers who are buying widgets online. But if you’re actually delivering education, you’re impacting students career trajectories. You know, and I think that’s why AI is actually probably really education might be one of the hardest places to build an AI tool right now.

And that’s probably a good thing even though I think there’s a lot of folks who are excited about the promise AI can, you know, has to potentially, you know, lower barriers. And I think like we’ve known the bias from the beginning. Like we’ve known about right facial recognition from the beginning that was not include people of color, so you really couldn’t see the models.

Like we’ve known and we still move fast to make the gap wider, right? And I I think about that even in talent development like we’ve known those gaps are there and then we still continue to persist. And so I think about how can we in the next new wave that will always come.

Camelback is situated in a place where we can as much as possible seed ideas so that we have these more equitable horizons of folk creating it. Every time I see leaders in AI, I first imagine who’s going to be on the page. Then I open my eyes up and I see the same the same group of very monolithic people, right?

And even though I know, not saying that they shouldn’t be on the list, but I know there could be more people on the list. So really shifting from like there’s only a group who might have resources or understanding of how to do new wave technology to who else is probably innovating at the same rate but doesn’t have the same access or doesn’t have the connection to be noted as someone doing it. Yeah, I think we I don’t know might have been before we were rolling but I was like ranting a little bit about panels.

The other my other column with with panels is there’s there’s especially in AI conferences there’s this phenomena of the the equity panel and so it’s like we have one panel where we’re supposed to talk about all the different sort of like equity issues. And I I really reject that. I feel like if you like first of all equity is something that intersects with almost every conversation about AI whether it’s policy whether it’s the capabilities implementation and and so but the challenge is it’s really hard to find people who are building AI that are from you know diverse backgrounds I mean it’s it’s and this is I think race is one of the biggest and most prominent things gender is another obviously but I mean for those who are you know obviously there’s this national conversation about DEI.

And just basically this roll back of like investments or even just a willingness to talk about equity as a concept. But I feel like people forget that equity means a lot more than just race or gender. I mean, there is and there is in inequities geographically.

You know, you talk about the South, I’m from the Midwest. People from the Midwest are not represented at AI conferences in Silicon Valley. And it’s, you know, it’s a really hard problem to solve.

And I think part of why it’s hard is you have to be doing work like Camelback has been doing, you know, in the trenches for 10 years now. 10 Years, plus years. Yeah.

Okay. So, one of the things that we hear about the promise of AI, it can it can lower barriers to access. I’m curious for your take on what I see as maybe one of the most obvious examples of that meaningful examples of that is I don’t have you heard of vibe coding?

Vibe coding is basically you have this idea for an app or a product and you can use AI tools now like cursor to just basically get to a pretty decent MVP or a prototype without actually knowing how to code. Yeah. I mean, are you see because when you talk about, you know, used to actually have ideas where it just be back of the envelope or back of the napkin and now are you seeing folks actually being able to get something a little bit more defined and, you know, built when they’re coming at coming to you before they even have their first check?

Yeah, absolutely. And it it ma it matters, I’ll say, cuz like if you’re trying to open a new school, it’s different, right? And so that’s going to take more resources.

We often look for people who at least are on the road to their charter before we invest in them. And this is moving so fast, right? So, if we even talk about the fact that we have cycles twice a year, two or three years ago, no, now we see people who have more of MVP and able to test before they have a significant amount of financial resource, which is great.

So it’s moving faster, I would say. And is even we think about our capital investment there’s the argument of like well do you then give less capital investment or do you give more or you know the same because then it goes farther right and so we’re seeing again because our communities are very diverse we’re seeing some people who yes have been able to use those type of resources or use AI in some way in which they can have more of an MVP but often we’re also looking at now have you tested it have you has it have you done that work with students And do you even know that’s out there? Do you?

So it’s it’s still pretty broad I would say, right? Because we’re going to have people who are applying from all across the country and many of them still are going to have a really traditional pathway of where they are. And what I will say is it’s unfortunate because then someone who may have be farther along might has more of an advantage.

And so we’re really thinking about that too. The the double-edged sword of AI literacy is that once you sort of start to accept that okay we want you know it it can lower the barrier for folks to build and to to come up with like this amazing idea for a product but I think at some point everybody will it’ll be kind of like you know Google search is something everybody will just know how to do intuitively I think we’re in that gray area right now where you know I don’t know that you can blame someone that they haven’t had a chance to use the tools because we’re not teaching it in schools for in a large part there really aren’t easy ways for folks. I mean you can you basically need someone in your life that’s like hey like let me just like show you literally like let me open up my my laptop I’m going to like show you how I use whether it’s chatgbt or cursor y and and so how I mean how do you think about that?

I mean so so you get now applications some of them it’s really obvious I guess that someone’s been using AI. Do you ever get an application from someone where you’re like, if they were using AI, this could be so much better, but do you still give them sort of like fair shake and say, well, you know, we’re not setting that expectation yet. You’re not sort of establishing the bar.

Yeah, I don’t think we’re there yet. For sure in terms of our process and I think as we we’re in that middle space, like you said, that gray space, right? And so we would not want to set a bar where literally access is a reason why someone is not have a chance or an expectation.

Also, we’re pretty transparent. And so we would almost share out here’s how we’re thinking about selection. Here’s what we hope you can do or are doing.

Here’s where the bar is. And so people can like, oh, let me go figure out what this bar is over here. Let me use this.

I also would say even for myself, it’s interesting with technology. I would say I’m like the step typically before the lagger. You know, I’m not the last person.

I’m like, let me just wait and see. And with AI though and and using it as a CEO, I have been pretty like not the earliest but pretty early to say what like how can this make me even more efficient with who with the work I’m doing and can you give some examples? Yeah, I mean, you know, I look I definitely for content how I’m drafting, how I’m messaging.

You know, even if I have an idea, I’m ideulating them like let me just put in this idea and see what comes out here. Because I’m a person like you, like visionary, lots of ideas and with curious around like what does it come up with if I want to start a new program that is, you know, helping young people with STEM development. Not that I’m doing it like at Camelback, but what does it come up with and and how real is it?

Does it actually give ideas that make sense? Is there too much elucation in it? Like so I have seen what I believe is that AI enabled tools and people who use AI are going to be the people who are mo more efficient possibly and actually your job is not going to be taken by AI.

It’s going to be taken by someone who uses AI. So how do we help you know innovators, entrepreneurs but also even educators really open up to say how can I one have more time to do the thing we love to do teach build relationship with our teach with our students like really connect with them and I just remember as a teacher I was so bogged down even though I put relationships first I was always bogged down by the operations of being a teacher the logistics of being a teacher the paperwork of being a teacher wanting to authentic authentically give feedback to my students and but also give them really authentic assignments. But every time I gave them an authentic writing assignment or a lab assignment as a science teacher, I’d have literally stacks and stacks of like things to grade and and give feedback on.

And so I think there’s opportunity in that that gets me excited for the education. And what you bring up a lot when you’re talking about the work of aiEDU is shoring up the gap between educators, education, the classroom and teach and students and the the technology that’s happening in the world. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I but I think it’s so important that you that you’re using AI yourself and you mentioned hallucinations and I think that’s you know an anecdote but like a really good example of you know why it’s so important for leaders who aren’t necessarily in the front lines of building still understand how these tools work because you know what Camelback is probably dealing with is something like well you’re well let me pose this as a question so have you found that the way you evaluate potential f potential candidates has shifted because you know someone could send you like a really great business you know business plan or idea and it’s like you have to press a little bit beyond to figure out did they just sort of like spend five minutes prompting but I I assume your your process is already pretty robust so maybe yeah we well it’s a long process so you know that includes the an interview that includes discussion around your idea where it’s coming from. And now we’re even sort of going to include like really understanding the tool that you’re building or the program that you have authentically more. And so we can see, you know, a bit of if it if it’s not specific is the key around when it seems like someone’s not in the most effective way using AI to just get their application done because it comes off as generic versus or you can’t hear a true voice, right?

So even when I write with AI, I will draft my content. I will maybe use a tool just so I can see like how what’s their perspective, but I’m not going to change my voice in that. And so I would say, and my team is probably better at at answering the question, but in the process that I’ve been through, I see authentic applications.

And not just in and again, not that someone hasn’t helped with the nuances of verbs and things like that, but I see authentic applications that once they get to for the finalist and once they get to that point when they show up in the discussions, you can really tell it’s like their life’s work, their passion. And so that’s what we’re looking for in the application. Yeah.

And AI can’t not only can it won’t it won’t really help you with the interview but if you rely too much on AI like I didn’t actually use AI to prep for this conversation because I found that the process of me actually writing out the questions and like thinking about it and sort of like spending some time sort of reading your bio was like the most important more so than like the actual output of like having like a a run of show because at the end of the day if I just memorized questions I think you’d get something that’s a little less I mean I don’t think I do a great job but it’d be even worse than than what you’re getting right now. And I was Yeah, I was gonna say like sometimes it’s less efficient like to use AI like to use it to literally like I know I want this to be a bit more even raw or emotion of you know it’s it’s been we started this year with a terrorist attack in New Orleans. I’m not going to use AI to write my response to my team.

You know, like this is this is how I want you to understand and know how I and you know, over five of our full-time staff are in New Orleans. We have community in New Orleans and I want them to know that we feel their pain. I feel their pain and there’s no AI tool that can write that for me.

And so I think also, you know, time and space, but there’s other times when if I just I’m curious about this, I end up spending more time going back and rewriting what was shared as an option. And then there’s times when it’s really helpful, right? And so I think, like you said, it’s going to just be a tool in the future.

And so, but we’re in a gray space right now. Yeah. The I mean I feel like sometimes people are and I almost wonder I mean you talk about you know AI might be able to write a slightly more eloquent probably not but like let’s just say it’s something like less emotionally charged but even if AI could write it better there will I think in the near future not even the distant future the near future be more and more value place in authenticity even at the expense of having the perfect words and verbiage and you know poetry I think people will be looking for just like is this like a real like human is this like a real am I actually talking or hearing from a real person?

Okay, humor me a little bit because I I think there’s there’s so Camelback’s to me there’s there’s no wor I have no worry about your ability to sift through all of the AI all the noise AI is probably creating. I’m sure lots of people, you know, if you’re listening and you’re planning on using AI, sounds like it’s okay to use it, but you’re going to have to be ready for the interview and you better be thinking about like how do I make sure this application doesn’t come off as just, you know, AI generated because lots of people are you’re not that’s not an original idea. There’s a lot of people with the same idea.

You have the interview process, you have components of the process that allow you to sort of like you for authenticity. Yeah. I I’ve been talking to a lot of folks in admissions offices and so there’s this big question now.

How do we deal with college applications and I’m curious for your take because you actually were on the other side of this. You know you were at postsec in the postsecary space. Yeah.

And and so you know I’ve heard a few different takes. Let me just let me just share like the most recent take that I’ve been that I’ve heard which is we need to share guidance that students are allowed to use AI. They should cite it when they use it.

And but we just have to assume that they’re going to take advantage of these tools. But I I worry about is the application process is the college application process designed such that we’re able to elucidate the authenticity because most of it right now is what you’re like filling out a form, you write an essay. Is is that it like is there like obviously later on there’s interviews but like the first step in the process like do you have like what advice would you give to an admissions counselor?

It’s a curious question because my daughter also just is a freshman in college. So we literally went through this whole process with her, you know, a year and a half ago at best when AI tools are there and things like that. And I I remember for her it was it was not something that she was looking to use like it was very important to her as she was writing her essays that it was her voice and and you know she had a college counselor things like that who helped and we read it and things like that but it I I think it was just it was so wonderful to see how she showed up in her essays.

I remember she was applying to Harvard was one of her schools and they asked about like what would your message be to your roommate? And I remember I just loved her essay so much cuz it was just like she started by saying I love how to really listen for how people laugh and it tells me so much about them and then she went into her personal story a little bit and then at the end of her essay she said I can’t wait to hear you laugh and I was just like ah there’s no AI going you know what I I was like, "Oh." And that was like the short essay for them, right? And then she has other essays that she wrote.

Me applied to way too many colleges. But but I just I I think there is this piece around like showing you who you are. And you know, the shortcut of having AI write your college essay.

And I think often they’re like there’s things in there will say like, you know, we can’t help this you with this. It doesn’t it doesn’t give you probably the outcome you’re looking for and so I I wonder sometimes when I’m in work I call some things a distraction right so not that no one will do it but I wonder if that’s more of a distraction than like what we need to do as you say college is already doing it’s like how do we help young people know how to use the tools so they’re more effective when they’re coming out when they’re going to college and things like that and it’s almost like social media like how do we help them use social media in a way that they don’t become consumed by an algorithm and they can navigate the world more effectively with it as a tool versus not at all over consumption and so I have a lot of hope for the generation and we in addition to to being CEO of Camelback like I’m a co-founder of a career accelerator called Mosaic and I’ve done boot camps for young people and in particular helping them apply for college. And what I see is young people who want to be authentic and want to put their best foot forward.

And I think that admissions counselors can see that too. I I’m always a big believer in just sort of like trusting educators and folks who are like have dedicated their lives to this. Yeah, I don’t think AI could write have written your daughter’s essay.

And here’s I guess the other, you know, the other the the contrarian case would go something like actually, you know, some of the latest models are really good and and if you were to prompt it right, you know, I think maybe the first essay you’d get would not be able to to get to the level of what your daughter wrote. But with a little bit of knowhow, you could probably get to something that’s like 80% as good. And maybe that’s not going to get you into Harvard.

What is your daughter going to school? Harvard. Is it Harvard?

She’s a freshman. Yeah, she loves it. May not get you into Harvard, but you know, it might get you into Ohio State where I went.

And you know, you have the ability, you use AI enough that you can probably read something, you probably have a good spidey sense. My my wondering is how do we get college admissions counselors to a place where they have enough instinct to be able to read something and no because I think in the near future if we’re not already there today I think we should pretty much assume that in the near future yeah we’ll get good enough to be able to to fool you know doing that anyway though right like I think people are paying I mean varsity blues was like how many years ago like people who want to skate the system or like not do the work because the question is like if you use AI for your essays is that a bad thing well if you’re if you’re using it to spell check, if you’re using it for things like that, but if you’re literally like I’m not going to do that, say you just write it for me, that’s not great, right? And so that’s already happening before for the you being honest, right?

There are people who are just letting someone else do the process for them who can afford it. Who can afford it, right? And so and it’s not great, but there’s it’s happening.

So now what I think about is the young people who really are not doing that and also what do they need to be able to do when they get out of college or where they go into the workforce. And for instance, we just hired for a manager of Marcom marketing communications and one of our questions was like how do you use AI to do your work? Because we know in particular with writing that could help you be even more efficient.

And so candidates who you know did not use AI or did not want to use it were not top of our list. We wanted to like hire someone who could actually give more capacity. Still wanted a human with capacity that could help us with you know this new role that we were crafting.

And so my brain goes to and I know it’s not fully answering the question, but on the other side of that is these are young people who actually are going to need to know how to use those tools in various job. Not just because you’re an AI prompt engineer or you’re in, you know, software developer, but we’re asking a marketing manager how to use AI for the work you’re doing. Yeah.

Shout out to Jeff Livingston who really has pushed my Jeff, these good people. I mean, Jeff Livingston has really pushed the way I’ve thought about this because he I mean, he’s really come at it from, I think, precisely where you came, which is suddenly everybody’s worried about kids cheating on these college application essays. And you know, some kids actually had parent GPT, you know, let alone let alone parents were paying for coaches to actually just like completely outsource and write it.

But I mean I think you know there people were not as concerned about these situations where and it’s and certain and and that’s where there’s a lot of disparity today and so I think there’s this interesting question of like sure AI probably will be an issue there probably are going to be examples of kids who are getting into college and they didn’t write the essay at all and but that problem be a lot small yeah that problem’s been happening and and I wonder if this the scale of the other side of that which is kids who didn’t have access to any support, anybody to read their essay now have a a a collaborator that they can actually plug it in. And you know what? It’s probably a whole lot a heck of a lot easier to train college admissions counselors to get smarter about how they evaluate.

I guess what part of what you’re saying is like set the bar, you know, we set the bar kind of high authenticity. Like we can still we can still really have high demands for what students are putting forward. If they want to try to use AI to to do something authentic, like you know, God be with you.

Like, you know, maybe maybe you’re going to be successful, you might actually spend to your point more time trying to hack the AI than if you just like tried to write something yourself. But that skill set is it’s interesting because that actually is a skill set that we’ve been struggling with. You’d be surprised at an organization called the AI Education Project.

And I’m I’m I’m part of the the issue here is like we have not necessarily figured out or crack the code on how do you empower folks to use AI tools. There’s a stigma. I think people are legitimately like I don’t feel like it’s fair for me to use AI to sort of shortcut something that I was hired to do and we have to almost be like no it’s part of this is like setting norms.

And you mentioned social media. I’m almost curious for your take on like a lot of what you’re describing is is less about creating rules and more about almost setting cultural norms, but like who who are the folks that we lean on to to do that norm setting for something like whether students or if and how students should be using AI, you know, for college applications? Yeah.

I mean, and and I go back to why why is there such concern now about cheating? Like because it’s accessible to communities that didn’t have access before because you know this is not as you said it’s just not new in terms of who had someone help them parent counselor paid or not and so I I I don’t even go to sessions talking about cheating in AI I won’t even walk in the room I’m just like you know people’s been cheating for years so at this point I think it is like one how do we help whoever use the tools so that they’re they’re like sort of having more output being having more capacity and then in many cases like I said I think that students for my daughter for instance she would not even use it like it wasn’t even she didn’t it was not it was a non-starter for her she loves writing she wanted to tell her story like that wasn’t her anchor right and so I just think if we air on the side of like not being so distracted by that and move on to because because again it was already inequitable people were getting all those resources and now that it’s under the guise of a technology it’s like oh and I’m not saying people didn’t care before I’m sure they did but I’m I’m also like there weren’t there weren’t as many sessions about it I never saw a session on it actually so so it’s like it’s accessible and Maybe it is around the how and then like but literally 3 years after or less you’re going to be asking those same students to use AI to get a job in their job. So I’m hoping there’s other ways in which counselors, college counselors can really look at what is it that you want to assess or know and how important is the college essay in the process.

Maybe even stepping back completely and thinking about a different way. What are you trying to solve with the college essay? Oh, yeah.

And I I think about like what happened in with COVID. Like what happened in COVID? You couldn’t take the SAT or ACT or the subject test, right?

So then you had to really think, well, how do we know outside of a test or an assessment, how do we get at the same end? And so what came out of that is at the end of the day, the subjectbased tests for SAT don’t exist anymore because you know what I like we still can get to the same end in a different way even though the other tests have come back. So I think it’s I would pull up differently and say what are you trying to get at and we do for instance with our job applications we do videos also like we do a video interview oneway video and have people you know just tell two minutes why you interested in camel bag why do you want to work here what do you want to do here that’s amazing how early in the process are they submitting the video first first round really yeah video and so there’s ways in which again like have them talk about it you know like what’s your passion?

What is it? And I understand there’s different access issues and things like that, but I would also kind of push a bit around what are you trying to get at with that essay and do you have enough data from certain things already and then really fine-tune what it is you want to ask about so that it’s not taking up one a lot of time. So the student is feeling like I’m going to use AI instead of write it.

And you can get some authenticity in like the process like so and they may be already thinking of this already. Have not deepened admissions when I was at MIT and Duke. You know, it was before AI had the AI boom.

I mean, I think it’s scattered. I mean, there’s folks are definitely talking about it. I I actually was invited to present to it was like the National Association of College Counselors and they invited me to they wanted they wanted it to be a session about how they can use AI to help them in admissions and I was like I’m actually not going to talk about that because you probably shouldn’t even be using it that much to screen candidates if I’m being honest.

I I was like let me I want to talk more about you know what this is going to mean for you know college and career pathways and sort of your role there. But I like this I like this challenge of you know if cheating is an issue like rather than focus on like the students as sort of like the the malicious actors rather shift the lens and say what are the roles of educators in sort of you know getting smarter about how we evaluate students and you just described a really easy it’s not that they need to you know all go to school and become AI experts to figure this out but it’s like small things that’s just thoughtful like a two-minute video my my people team is going to definitely here get a get a question about that like hey should we because that’s actually the advice that we we did we did a session on cheating at the at the Anaheim Summit but the session was all about not how do you catch kids cheating but like how do you adapt your classroom practices and it was like you know using more time in the classroom and having students debate and present and teachers will sometimes say well yeah but that’s my in-classroom time like you know I I what do I what do I do out of the classroom and yeah, record a video seems the flip the classroom model or like it it it’s a curious problem to be challenged by, right? Like because that doesn’t happen a lot in education.

It’s not just like how do you catch a cheater? It’s like how could I reinvent how I teach? I keep kids engaged in the wake of technology being in the room like okay this is the technology we have.

How do we teach now so the kids get excited about it? I think it’s more reason to use like you know inquiry based learning or just like I for a science teacher I think about labs I get excited about labs like okay great so do I want to give a whole bunch of lab report assignments and people going to go do use AI to write them all up or do I want to have more hands-on activities and opportunities and and have like you’re going to write your observations right now while you’re in the room and tell me what you got you know that kind of thing. Yeah, that the in-classroom time is now more valuable than ever.

So, so we’re both actually working on a very similar challenge, which is how do you because I think the the answer that a lot of folks will tell you and I know this because we’ve actually been doing this work, right? How do you sort of build AI literacy and sort of like those skills amongst the the educators who are, you know, they’re really well-intentioned. They just feel like they don’t have the time or the confidence to engage.

So we can talk about educators and folks in K-12, but I’m curious if there’s any analoges that we can pull from how Camelback has thought about. I mean, you have this event coming up in New Orleans. You know, what I’ve heard what what you’re what I’ve heard from you is a lot of this is going to be all about knowledge transfer and folks getting the chance to learn not just from other entrepreneurs, but like learn from the field and what’s coming down the down the pipe from, you know, a technology standpoint.

Like what lessons have you learned in terms of the best way to sort of build confidence in people who don’t necessarily have like you know all the different expertise that they need as a CEO. Yeah. And then I’ll try to see if there’s any connection points for that.

Yeah. Yeah. A few thoughts from that.

Well I would say in general for people to want to go into an area what we’ve learned in talent development is that you have to have confidence, knowledge and like desire interest, right? And so what can you teach? And so I think for us at Camelback, we can teach more content.

We can help you really change from you have an innovative idea, but now you have to hire a team, you’ve got to raise money, you got to write a budget, you got to manage a budget. All those things are what makes you makes you really successful in your venture. And so we spend time on your not just your business plan, but really how you show up as now a CEO.

And we we I believe that’s teachable. And I think also how you show up is different. The enthusiasm I might have as an extroverted person is different than someone who’s very as our founder look very cerebral and will like be thoughtful in his thinking and then share his thoughts.

Both are can make you successful as a person. It’s just who how you show up in the space. And so I would say that’s one thing that we really focus on within Camelback.

And I also I do think capital matters. I do think people having financial resources helps them feel that confident and being able to do something and and having a community around them of people who have a similar kind of lived experience that are also going through that. So not isolated and as well we also do paid coaching.

So we recognize that you have to have someone who’s constantly checking in with you as you’re building. And as a person again who was a social entrepreneur I paid for that. I literally have paid people to help me know how to launch something because I’m like I’m ideulating so much.

I’m not going from zero to I’m just sitting at zero to.5, right? And so that’s what we’ve learned is important. But I wanted to go back to your point around educators and remembering what that was like in the classroom and then becoming a Keenan fellow where I got two things, time and money and a mentor.

Three things, right? So, like the summertime where I usually would have to go get another job because I’d need financial resources, I was literally paid for a fellowship to create and design a project that could not only be used in my classroom but across the state of North Carolina. And so, I I remember that so vividly because I also had time to literally that summer just like learn and see what was out on the internet and how it can integrate into my classroom.

And so I do think educators just need time. You can give them lots of workshops and everything but they need time. They need time to sit with the content and have conversations and many educators have their own learning process.

It’s not just like oh I have a teacher workday. Let me get a big notebook and I just got to drill it in my head and I’m going to go do whatever. So ways in which we can create that and I would say it’s very similar to entrepreneurs and and founders because you often will get caught up into what stage you are in trying to launch your business and not how do you take a moment and think strategically around what’s needed or not.

We see with entrepreneurs that often there are areas that become pitfalls for them and that includes hiring. It’s raising money, but it’s hiring. And hiring is critical when you have limited resources.

And so we spend time on how you really not just hire and build a team, but build a culture and what is it that’s going to be a barrier for you as you are forming your your business in your venture. So I’m not sure if I answer the question, but this is I’m just reflecting. Yeah, one of the cruel ironies of being a founder is spending the money is actually harder than than raising it.

And doesn’t feel like that when you’re on the other side of raising the funds, but that has definitely been my experience. Hiring is by far the most difficult thing that I’ve had to learn and also the most leveraged thing. And yeah, I mean, so this is interesting, right?

Like the we’re not going to get teachers to be AI literate through a workshop. And what you’re describing is really almost a much more holistic way of like how how does a school orient itself towards celebrating experimentation and innovation? Are there any are there any schools or you know is anybody doing this really well that we could learn from?

Oh, that’s such my Yeah, I don’t I don’t know. You may have even better because you’re in schools so much and I know even like we fund charter schools and we have several across the country and I think there is a piece of like where are they now in their AI journey like what may and how can we support them in that as well as our ventures and so again I started 11 months ago so a lot of what we’re doing right now is going back and having conversations with our founders and just understanding how are they doing how is the that seed funding that may have and literally 10 years ago to just 6 months ago. How has it been supportive and helpful for them?

And then really what we’re building out right now is because as an organization we want to be more than our fellowship. How do we how are we with you along the long journey? The arc of a social entrepreneur which I believe is at least 10 years and then when you hit that 10 year mark what are the plans right because we we don’t want social entrepreneurs to sort of exit just then but in some cases there needs to be succession planning for the venture you have and how you do that well or how are you thinking about the next stage of your own venture and so I don’t have exact examples for schools but I would love to to hear the ones you have and always come back for another conversation around ventures and that are centered for a camel back that are AI you know influenced as well as anchored.

Yeah. Well, I I’ll we can we can talk after this about some of the examples that I have. I because I want to spend more time hearing from you.

I think this idea of community though is actually really at the core of what we because the broad answer to to your question is we do workshops we do a lot of PD but what has real staying power is where you actually do sort of longer form professional learning communities and fellowships and cohorts because you know it’s you know in a perfect world teachers will have more time they’ll have more resources they’ll be paid to go and sort of do learning that’s aligned to their specific needs. That’s generally not a reality in most of the schools, certainly the schools that where we do work in. But you know, Hailback doesn’t have a huge budget.

I mean, you’re not this is not you’re not really sort of like talking down to educators, you know, from the stupid of like, you know, like there are billion dollar plus foundations where, you know, maybe the answer for them is just like money to support teachers. But you’ve built community, a really big community with, you know, relatively scrappy and small amount of funding. And so I think there’s you know if if Camelback is able to do it in the domain where you have built I feel like you know schools can do things like give teachers a chance to share and celebrate them for you know trying and you know even failing with something and just sort of like creating a culture within within the district of you know that sort of entices teachers to sort of like you know take risks.

Yeah, I agree. And I think summer is an opportune time because for there to be more thinking and creating for teachers and that’s what I loved about the Keenan Fellowship because it wasn’t we are tired as teachers we are tired at the summer time we were like we just want to rest but after you get that moment I think there is this desire to have enriched depth of learning for yourself as you’re going back in the classroom and so I don’t remember when I was with the Kina fellowship feeling overly tired. I felt refreshed because it was it wasn’t going to teach summer school, something a little bit different different.

And so, and I would say for Camel Bag, we build community from the very beginning. So, we start with an in-person welcome week, which is really important for us, and we bring all of our fellows together and we bring many of our team members together with them and take them through just like it’s interesting. The first day is not like let me just, you know, sort of give you 10 hours of content.

It’s tell your story. You tell your story. I’m going to tell my story.

We’re going to hear all of our stories and you can share whatever you want about your story. And it’s often anchored in your personal journey. And it’s often emotional.

It’s often like just authentic. It’s always authentic. And how does that relate to what you’re building now?

And so, and then we get into the second and third day around, okay, then here’s how you’re going to get this work done, right? And then we have virtual sessions for up to four months. And then we have another in-person little closing week where we bring folk back together and talk about what how are you going to share your story, your pitch, whatever it is, with the external world.

And they have they are a family like there many of our cohorts, they they still are in communication with each other. And know what’s going on with each other. And so that’s that’s what I love about how we approach it.

And I think what what we’re thinking about is again how can we share more of that with more social entrepreneurs beyond the fellowship that we know need community and even when I’ve talked to funders around like how can we curate a circle of folk who are venture back you know venture funds or philanthropic and they’re like okay great you know love to see your your founders all this stuff they’re like but that community sounds really really good I would love to be in a community with other venture funds or other philanthropic partners that are funding this work. And so I think there’s something real there. I I think there’s definitely something real.

And we’ve, you know, it’s funny because funders have even come to us for the same thing. Thing. They’re like, "Well, we were trying to learn more about, you know, how to how to deal with this AI thing and rather than just sort of give them specific answers, you know, we we sort of just said, let’s bring you together, and you need to hear from not just other funders, but also from the practitioners and hear the problems of practice." We actually have something coming up in like two weeks.

Yeah. At Lone Rock, and that is a structure. It’s basically you know, anchor it on problems of practice.

I but the methodology you describe you know this is I I see echoes of it in our approach to to AI literacy and yeah you know we have a big contrast I mean when you when there’s there’s certain folks who you know they their AI workshops are sort of like dive right into sort of like the prompt engineering and like how to use the tools we actually start with like your why and understanding the context of AI and all the different ways it’s going to impact your students and society and the econ economy at large and sort of zooming out beyond just sort of like this is a tool that you can use. And you know, I it some people get it and it clicks and others I think they’re like they’re looking for something that’s a little bit more turnkey. I’m but I’m I’m I’m sort of you’re you’re you’re building a lot of confidence in me that like it’s actually really worthwhile with teachers to invest that time and energy for them to sort of have the context before diving right into getting their you know having them roll roll up their sleeves because there’s just because not every teacher is going to be thinking about artificial intelligence in the same way and it’s I I think almost the way you describe your you know your founders where some of them they’re actually building AI companies.

Some of them are just using AI in the background. And you’re not dictating to them. You’re not setting sort of like specific criteria.

You’re sort of letting them sort of figure that out for themselves. Yeah. Yeah.

I I think people want to be seen. They want to, you know, like as a teacher, you have a lot of autonomy in your classroom and and and also a lot of workload. And so really understanding well one how we could help you with workload but also how can we help you help your your students be successful in what’s next and that is that’s the number one goal for a teacher that’s why you’re in the classroom and so I often there’s just such a gap between like what’s happening in the world when it comes to technology and what they have access to.

And so for me I remember it’s like I just have to focus on problem solving. Like if I if I help you learn how to pro solve problems then you’re going to be able to you know you know you’re going to be successful or decipher certain information that’s where I anchored on and so now I think it’s helping teachers see hey regardless of the tool here’s what young people need you know that already now let’s talk about how AI integrates into that and that might also reduce the somewhat nervousness if if it’s there. Yeah.

I mean, there there’s a there’s a lot on their plates. Yeah. So, a lot and and you can’t solve all of it.

And so, sometimes it’s actually just creating space for them to to sort of share that that’s sort of what their context is. Yeah. So pretty broad cross-section of people that could be listening to this.

I want to hone in on for someone who’s a potential founder, maybe they’re a founder, maybe they have an idea or they want to have an idea. What advice do you have for them? I mean they obviously they’re going to go to your website but but now they have a chance to hear directly from you.

What what advice would you give to somebody who approaches you and says hey I want to be a Camelback fellow? Yeah thank you for asking. I mean I think one it is good to look at our website and I would say that we’re focused on education and technology.

So one is there alignment with your interest? So education from starting a new school to an after school program or workforce development, STEM development program and then also edtech, fintech and health tech. So something in those areas and you’re at a space where you’re like you’ve ideiated enough that you have a thing, you know, you have an idea, you have an MVP, you’ve tested some things out and you’re really looking for obviously capital but also an experience, right?

So for some people they want capital investment but not necessarily the experience of the four months and that it all comes together. And then also I would say you’re passionate about the problem you’re solving for or the thing you want to create an event. And it’s aligned with communities that are that don’t typically have a lot of resources and access.

And so we really are focused on providing this early stage funding or friends and family round to entrepreneurs from communities that are have been underfunded and that are serving are are pro are developing solutions and innovations for those same communities. So you you have a lived experience that’s aligned with what you’re solving for. And we named that because that is the gap.

Like we’re we’re doing this work to fill a gap, not just to be another player in a space. When we look at the ecosystem, there’s a group of folk who have amazing ideas and no resources or community or content to make them realize. And it come came from the lived experience of our founder Aaron Walker.

He had two other ventures that were great ideas that didn’t have the components needed to make it as successful as he wanted to be. And he literally founded Camelback as a solution for the problem that he lived as an a social entrepreneur. And so 10 years later, 180 founders have benefited from that.

And so we are will be opening our our application this spring or actually in March. And we’d love to see more applications. We also have a call to action for those who want to support our work.

So that could be philanthropic partners or even venture funds who are interested in partnering with us as we support our entrepreneurs. Usually we get two or 30 hundred applications every cycle and we really want to be a voice and what does it mean to support entrepreneurs who typically don’t have access to capital content and community? Tony Young, thanks again for coming.

Thank you, Alex.